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> All of the aggression on Ukrainian can be traced back to them moving closer to the EU, NATO, and putting western hardware on Ukrainian soil. That's what Russ

by bkor 5y ago

> All of the aggression on Ukrainian can be traced back to them moving closer to the EU, NATO, and putting western hardware on Ukrainian soil. That's what Russian propaganda keeps saying. But they ignore the huge amounts of gas that was found in the region of Ukraine that was annexed by Russia. Further, Ukraine gave back their nuclear weapons. Meaning, Ukraine already acted to demilitarize. Ukraine moving closer to EU and NATO can be traced back to Ukraine finding huge gas reserves in 2012 and Russia attacking Ukraine in 2014.

hnlmorg 5y ago
> That's what Russian propaganda keeps saying. Not really. Russian propaganda talk about liberating Ukraine because it is ruled by Nazi's. They talk about themselves as the heroes rather than wanting to destroy Ukraine "just" to create a neural zone. The gas might be a motivator too but as you said yourself Ukraine was moving closer to EU and NATO before Russia started any hostilities. Summarizing will always leave some detail out so I'll instead link to a talk that does go in depth into this point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
- kkfx 5y ago
  There are few issues there: Russians of course do not act for humanitarian reasons but for interests however they are right saying the NATO create a nazi gov in Ukraine and they are right saying they are not starting a war because the civil war between those nazi militias (like Pravy Sektor, C14, Azov etc) and Russian-speaking Ukrainian (30+% of the total population) was started in 2014 with the infamous Euromaidan massacre and keep going in a slow genocide since them. That's one of the real issues. Others are the fact that so far Russian do not start any war, while NATO have done that, and have done that with lie like the nonexistent Saddam mass-destruction weapons or the lie that the taliban (created by NATO BTW, to counter Soviet Union) host bin laden. Long story short: putin is a dictator BUT his propaganda have plenty fo truth to use against NATO just because the other side (USA and UK in primis, BUT others as well) are equally dictatorships only with much more hypocrisy and less symbols. The famous putin's definition of the west as the empire of lie is unfortunately actually true. The "solution" then depend on who: for us, Citizens, the solution is eradicating the neoliberal ideology will all their apical figure put to serve lifetime jail in condition sore enough to discourage anyone trying to follow their examples. For USA and UK gov. the war MUST go on though because they need to silence protests against them by their own people hit by economic crisis and Democracy destruction operated by them. China LIKE the war because for them means having plenty of Russian's natural resources, at a discounted price, and also probably access to high tech military gears, probably enough to counter USA in few years given their industrial power. Putin need a bit the war to silence protests in Russia itself, destroy the oligarch he dislike (and he actually thanks the NATO for sanctions help). So that's the issue: the solution needed by the people is the opposite of the needs of the "élites".
  - orwin 5y ago
    Russia started two wars (three with Ukraine, or 4 if you count 2014) since 1991, USA started two.
    - kkfx 5y ago
      Are you sure? Is Russian that start Ukrainian war or are nazi's militias formed, armed and trained by the west? I'm asking, really, because the 2014 Euromaidan massacre against Russian-speaking Ukrainian's no one in the west have so far said was started by Russia... While many who know history know very well Yalta agreements post WWII about NATO expansion in the eastern Europe, violated from the start to divide Berlin, so to speak. Few also know historical ops by UK and USA like "Operation Unthinkable" and "Operation Dropshot" (see even Wikipedia) and their scope. Few also remember who want nazi's outside Germany, like a well known source of Russian propaganda named The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/11/trump-fdr-roosevelt-coup-attempt-1930s https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/11/trump-... the same JP Morgan company that in 2013 state south EU countries must withdraw their post WWII constitutions build to avoid a nazi/fascist renaissance... Not counting how nazi management/economic theory is close to modern neoliberal management/economic theory. Not counting land-grabbing also recent in Ukraine [1] or recent projects still active to detach Ukraine from Russian like the Ukrenergo project from 2017 [2] just to cite few pertinent examples, not counting the recent series of Austrian gov. scandals with the last few gov. liaisons with Ukraine nazis, you can start looking for the so called Ibiza Papers. Also you can notice that Russia have actual reasons to justify their actions, while they are certainly not the moving reasons, USA have LIED about Saddam's mass-destruction weapons, have LIED about Afghanistan protection to osama bin laden etc so far the Russian have not lied publicly, only in Mali they state they were not there just few months ahead of French withdraw and while formally true that was a deliberate lie since they have sent Wagner mercenaries, following the same path of USA usage of Blackwaters and co. But Iraq and Afghanistan was (and still are) the formal war, Syria (started by France, but kept going by NATO like Libya), Somalia, are not formal but still war with big numbers of people suffering and NATO is involved certainly not for peace enforcing or peace keeping ops. I'm from Italy, nephew of Italians partisans from WWII, I do know the history of WWII and I do know who are "nazi" and who are not enough to understand that putin is a dictator, but on the other side there are other dictators and putin is a dictator outside my country, some others are dictators inside so their are more "primary enemies" than him. Actually as a EU Citizens I feel all the right to accuse my governments of high treason since it act against us citizens, raping the reminiscence of Democracy we still have, raping the Constitution, for foreign interests to speak clear and loud. For me so far remaining in NATO means remaining in a criminal association against the people in general. Also I'm pretty convinced that USA and UK Citizens interests are NOT the interests their government have... [1] https://kyivindependent.com/opinion/yuri-polakiwsky-a-lend-lease-agreement-as-a-way-forward-for-ukraine/ https://kyivindependent.com/opinion/yuri-polakiwsky-a-lend-l... https://archive.is/rXbiM https://archive.is/rXbiM [2] https://ec.europa.eu/eu-external-investment-plan/projects/ukrenergo-integration-ukrainian-power-grid-continental-europe-synchronous-area-cesa_en https://ec.europa.eu/eu-external-investment-plan/projects/uk... https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2021/06/30/ukraines-power-infrastructure-integration-with-the-eu-power-grid-to-benefit-from-world-bank-support https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2021/06/30/u...

by bkor 5y ago

hnlmorg 5y ago

> That's what Russian propaganda keeps saying. Not really. Russian propaganda talk about liberating Ukraine because it is ruled by Nazi's. They talk about themselves as the heroes rather than wanting to destroy Ukraine "just" to create a neural zone. The gas might be a motivator too but as you said yourself Ukraine was moving closer to EU and NATO before Russia started any hostilities. Summarizing will always leave some detail out so I'll instead link to a talk that does go in depth into this point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4

kkfx 5y ago
There are few issues there: Russians of course do not act for humanitarian reasons but for interests however they are right saying the NATO create a nazi gov in Ukraine and they are right saying they are not starting a war because the civil war between those nazi militias (like Pravy Sektor, C14, Azov etc) and Russian-speaking Ukrainian (30+% of the total population) was started in 2014 with the infamous Euromaidan massacre and keep going in a slow genocide since them. That's one of the real issues. Others are the fact that so far Russian do not start any war, while NATO have done that, and have done that with lie like the nonexistent Saddam mass-destruction weapons or the lie that the taliban (created by NATO BTW, to counter Soviet Union) host bin laden. Long story short: putin is a dictator BUT his propaganda have plenty fo truth to use against NATO just because the other side (USA and UK in primis, BUT others as well) are equally dictatorships only with much more hypocrisy and less symbols. The famous putin's definition of the west as the empire of lie is unfortunately actually true. The "solution" then depend on who: for us, Citizens, the solution is eradicating the neoliberal ideology will all their apical figure put to serve lifetime jail in condition sore enough to discourage anyone trying to follow their examples. For USA and UK gov. the war MUST go on though because they need to silence protests against them by their own people hit by economic crisis and Democracy destruction operated by them. China LIKE the war because for them means having plenty of Russian's natural resources, at a discounted price, and also probably access to high tech military gears, probably enough to counter USA in few years given their industrial power. Putin need a bit the war to silence protests in Russia itself, destroy the oligarch he dislike (and he actually thanks the NATO for sanctions help). So that's the issue: the solution needed by the people is the opposite of the needs of the "élites".
- orwin 5y ago
  Russia started two wars (three with Ukraine, or 4 if you count 2014) since 1991, USA started two.
  - kkfx 5y ago
    Are you sure? Is Russian that start Ukrainian war or are nazi's militias formed, armed and trained by the west? I'm asking, really, because the 2014 Euromaidan massacre against Russian-speaking Ukrainian's no one in the west have so far said was started by Russia... While many who know history know very well Yalta agreements post WWII about NATO expansion in the eastern Europe, violated from the start to divide Berlin, so to speak. Few also know historical ops by UK and USA like "Operation Unthinkable" and "Operation Dropshot" (see even Wikipedia) and their scope. Few also remember who want nazi's outside Germany, like a well known source of Russian propaganda named The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/11/trump-fdr-roosevelt-coup-attempt-1930s https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/11/trump-... the same JP Morgan company that in 2013 state south EU countries must withdraw their post WWII constitutions build to avoid a nazi/fascist renaissance... Not counting how nazi management/economic theory is close to modern neoliberal management/economic theory. Not counting land-grabbing also recent in Ukraine [1] or recent projects still active to detach Ukraine from Russian like the Ukrenergo project from 2017 [2] just to cite few pertinent examples, not counting the recent series of Austrian gov. scandals with the last few gov. liaisons with Ukraine nazis, you can start looking for the so called Ibiza Papers. Also you can notice that Russia have actual reasons to justify their actions, while they are certainly not the moving reasons, USA have LIED about Saddam's mass-destruction weapons, have LIED about Afghanistan protection to osama bin laden etc so far the Russian have not lied publicly, only in Mali they state they were not there just few months ahead of French withdraw and while formally true that was a deliberate lie since they have sent Wagner mercenaries, following the same path of USA usage of Blackwaters and co. But Iraq and Afghanistan was (and still are) the formal war, Syria (started by France, but kept going by NATO like Libya), Somalia, are not formal but still war with big numbers of people suffering and NATO is involved certainly not for peace enforcing or peace keeping ops. I'm from Italy, nephew of Italians partisans from WWII, I do know the history of WWII and I do know who are "nazi" and who are not enough to understand that putin is a dictator, but on the other side there are other dictators and putin is a dictator outside my country, some others are dictators inside so their are more "primary enemies" than him. Actually as a EU Citizens I feel all the right to accuse my governments of high treason since it act against us citizens, raping the reminiscence of Democracy we still have, raping the Constitution, for foreign interests to speak clear and loud. For me so far remaining in NATO means remaining in a criminal association against the people in general. Also I'm pretty convinced that USA and UK Citizens interests are NOT the interests their government have... [1] https://kyivindependent.com/opinion/yuri-polakiwsky-a-lend-lease-agreement-as-a-way-forward-for-ukraine/ https://kyivindependent.com/opinion/yuri-polakiwsky-a-lend-l... https://archive.is/rXbiM https://archive.is/rXbiM [2] https://ec.europa.eu/eu-external-investment-plan/projects/ukrenergo-integration-ukrainian-power-grid-continental-europe-synchronous-area-cesa_en https://ec.europa.eu/eu-external-investment-plan/projects/uk... https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2021/06/30/ukraines-power-infrastructure-integration-with-the-eu-power-grid-to-benefit-from-world-bank-support https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2021/06/30/u...