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Old lady with a meager pension can still wear more clothes and ensure that her home is properly insulated. Same goes for the family with three kids. Indoor te

by rosndo 5y ago

Old lady with a meager pension can still wear more clothes and ensure that her home is properly insulated. Same goes for the family with three kids. Indoor temperatures going down by a degree or two really is not a big deal.

egao1980 5y ago
Unfortunately lower indoor temperature leads to excess mortality as stated in UK report - https://www.ons.gov.uk/releases/excesswintermortalityinenglandandwales2020to2021provisionaland2019to2020final https://www.ons.gov.uk/releases/excesswintermortalityinengla...
- leoedin 5y ago
  There's literally no mention of indoor temperature in that report. All it says is that more people die in winter than summer - that could be due to all sorts of reasons. We know that viruses spread more in winter because people are indoors - that appears to be the main cause of excess winter death. It's good practice to use sources which back up your claim, rather than just vaguely talk about the same topic.
- rosndo 5y ago
  I don’t see indoor temperatures discussed anywhere in this report, but yeah, excess mortality during the winter is to be expected. Some people suffering from debilitating conditions may freeze to death in their homes, but those people weren’t capable of safely living by themselves in the first place. I’ve lived through the winter in an old building that would barely heat above 17C, it wasn’t great, but I certainly wasn’t freezing all day long.
bkor 5y ago
> and ensure that her home is properly insulated. Netherlands is planning to get rid off gas for a while. I've attended a presentation by the city. They planned to spend 12.500 EUR per house to switch to an local heating plan. Basically a source of hot water will enter the home. This pipe is way bigger than a gas pipe, this is why 12.500 EUR is needed per home. They mentioned that likely you'll pay the same for heating as before. I find it bonkers. With 12.500, why not insulate and maybe prepare it for a air/water heat pump. The radiators on really old homes will need to be replaced with ones that work with a low temperature. Walls need to be insulated, windows and window frames likely need replacing. Still, it's way better to be more energy efficient than to spend 12.500 EUR per house (of which 11.500 will be "subsidized") than asking people to change things without actually improving their homes. The problem doesn't seem to be the money. The problem is that idiotic solutions are suggested. Plus that whatever is subsidized goes up in price. E.g. a air/water heat pump costs way too much.
- kkfx 5y ago
  You (and many others) forget a thing: gas is not only used to heat... It's used in various industrial sectors. Did you know why there is a fertilizer crisis in agriculture? Because modern fertilizers are made from gas, via ammonia. Oh, of course we have classic manure, but unfortunately if not enough because the Green New Deal want to push a meat-less diet not because of pollution but because doing so means that food production is a big industrial business, not something little player can run and compete. So we do not have enough natural and NON-polluting fertilizers and we do not have enough synthetic fertilizers either. Not only: many industrial process need heat, they might probably switch to electricity but not "today" and even doing so the price of the output will be veeeery higher than today not counting the fact that actually we do not know how to satisfy such eventual hyper-big electricity demand. If tomorrow all cars became e.v. in a snap we simply can't recharge them. Not only: we can't make metals for the green revolutions without fossils. etc etc etc. Long story short: I'm a LEFT-wing environmentalist and I see the Green New Deal as green as "dollar green" or "stereotypical toxic waste green", certainly not environment natural grass green. Oh, and do consider a thing: so far skyrocketed prices from gas, oil etc is NOT due to the Russians who keep selling as usual (and sanctions avoid touching those aspects) BUT due to future market speculations witch is a western and neoliberal thing, as "green" as the nazi, the same nazi they have armed and trained in Ukraine actually, not much differently on the original nazi in Germany, created and financed by the big & powerful of their time, locals AND from other countries included USA and UK wealthy and gov. (remember IBM and Standard Oil just to name two well known?)... Smelling rodent for myself I've choose to live a big city for a mounting area (a bit remote, BUT well served for various aspects, from internet connections to food and services) building a modern insulated house, with a small p.v. systems etc at that time was not cheap but now start to pay back not much by nature but by artificially skyrocket price of anything. And that's not good ALSO for me because yes, these days I'm well served by such investments but that's for artificial reasons. I'm still be "less wealthy" than what I could due to the new deal. Only very few keep profiting toward 2030 agenda where "no one [but neoliberals élite] will own nothing"...
  - krageon 5y ago
    > of course we have classic manure, but unfortunately if not enough The Netherlands has an enormous oversupply of poop. It's been exporting it for years, to whoever will take it. > the Green New Deal want to push a meat-less diet not because of pollution but because doing so means that food production is a big industrial business, not something little player can run and compete I'm afraid you entirely lost me here. This (meat can be done profitably at a smaller scale than plant production) is quite simply a fabrication.

by rosndo 5y ago

egao1980 5y ago

Unfortunately lower indoor temperature leads to excess mortality as stated in UK report - https://www.ons.gov.uk/releases/excesswintermortalityinenglandandwales2020to2021provisionaland2019to2020final https://www.ons.gov.uk/releases/excesswintermortalityinengla...

leoedin 5y ago
There's literally no mention of indoor temperature in that report. All it says is that more people die in winter than summer - that could be due to all sorts of reasons. We know that viruses spread more in winter because people are indoors - that appears to be the main cause of excess winter death. It's good practice to use sources which back up your claim, rather than just vaguely talk about the same topic.
rosndo 5y ago
I don’t see indoor temperatures discussed anywhere in this report, but yeah, excess mortality during the winter is to be expected. Some people suffering from debilitating conditions may freeze to death in their homes, but those people weren’t capable of safely living by themselves in the first place. I’ve lived through the winter in an old building that would barely heat above 17C, it wasn’t great, but I certainly wasn’t freezing all day long.

bkor 5y ago

> and ensure that her home is properly insulated. Netherlands is planning to get rid off gas for a while. I've attended a presentation by the city. They planned to spend 12.500 EUR per house to switch to an local heating plan. Basically a source of hot water will enter the home. This pipe is way bigger than a gas pipe, this is why 12.500 EUR is needed per home. They mentioned that likely you'll pay the same for heating as before. I find it bonkers. With 12.500, why not insulate and maybe prepare it for a air/water heat pump. The radiators on really old homes will need to be replaced with ones that work with a low temperature. Walls need to be insulated, windows and window frames likely need replacing. Still, it's way better to be more energy efficient than to spend 12.500 EUR per house (of which 11.500 will be "subsidized") than asking people to change things without actually improving their homes. The problem doesn't seem to be the money. The problem is that idiotic solutions are suggested. Plus that whatever is subsidized goes up in price. E.g. a air/water heat pump costs way too much.

kkfx 5y ago
You (and many others) forget a thing: gas is not only used to heat... It's used in various industrial sectors. Did you know why there is a fertilizer crisis in agriculture? Because modern fertilizers are made from gas, via ammonia. Oh, of course we have classic manure, but unfortunately if not enough because the Green New Deal want to push a meat-less diet not because of pollution but because doing so means that food production is a big industrial business, not something little player can run and compete. So we do not have enough natural and NON-polluting fertilizers and we do not have enough synthetic fertilizers either. Not only: many industrial process need heat, they might probably switch to electricity but not "today" and even doing so the price of the output will be veeeery higher than today not counting the fact that actually we do not know how to satisfy such eventual hyper-big electricity demand. If tomorrow all cars became e.v. in a snap we simply can't recharge them. Not only: we can't make metals for the green revolutions without fossils. etc etc etc. Long story short: I'm a LEFT-wing environmentalist and I see the Green New Deal as green as "dollar green" or "stereotypical toxic waste green", certainly not environment natural grass green. Oh, and do consider a thing: so far skyrocketed prices from gas, oil etc is NOT due to the Russians who keep selling as usual (and sanctions avoid touching those aspects) BUT due to future market speculations witch is a western and neoliberal thing, as "green" as the nazi, the same nazi they have armed and trained in Ukraine actually, not much differently on the original nazi in Germany, created and financed by the big & powerful of their time, locals AND from other countries included USA and UK wealthy and gov. (remember IBM and Standard Oil just to name two well known?)... Smelling rodent for myself I've choose to live a big city for a mounting area (a bit remote, BUT well served for various aspects, from internet connections to food and services) building a modern insulated house, with a small p.v. systems etc at that time was not cheap but now start to pay back not much by nature but by artificially skyrocket price of anything. And that's not good ALSO for me because yes, these days I'm well served by such investments but that's for artificial reasons. I'm still be "less wealthy" than what I could due to the new deal. Only very few keep profiting toward 2030 agenda where "no one [but neoliberals élite] will own nothing"...
- krageon 5y ago
  > of course we have classic manure, but unfortunately if not enough The Netherlands has an enormous oversupply of poop. It's been exporting it for years, to whoever will take it. > the Green New Deal want to push a meat-less diet not because of pollution but because doing so means that food production is a big industrial business, not something little player can run and compete I'm afraid you entirely lost me here. This (meat can be done profitably at a smaller scale than plant production) is quite simply a fabrication.