4 ms·

No, this looks at Europeans with Rose tinted glasses. I think there is innate tribalism in all of us. We can all rationally fight it and we rationally know wha

No, this looks at Europeans with Rose tinted glasses. I think there is innate tribalism in all of us. We can all rationally fight it and we rationally know what is morally the right thing to do. But it is in our core psychology to look for similarities/differences and identify as close/distance to other people. The Ukrainian government has also made an amazing job at galvanizing EU social media around this. The message is clear, it is us, your european brothers and sisters who are suffering right now, please help. In many ways the Ukrainians have succeeded in an information war where the Georgians, Armenians, Sirians, Yemenis have been unfortunately less successful.

eldaisfish 5y ago
- koonsolo 5y ago
  Lots of EU and NATO countries are post-soviet. The difference is only 1 or 2 generations away. When you have an incompatible religion, it's not generations away, when those generations hold on to that religion. That is the difference between Europeans with an older mentality, and people coming from a religion that doesn't share European values.
  - krageon 5y ago
    > European values Which ones would those be?
    - koonsolo 5y ago
      - law above religion - equality - democracy - Separation of powers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers) - ... See for official EU value: https://ec.europa.eu/component-library/eu/about/eu-values/ https://ec.europa.eu/component-library/eu/about/eu-values/
      - eldaisfish 5y ago
        are you confident in claiming that many areas of Poland, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania etc share in all of these values? The crux of the problem here is that people are searching for reasons to justify actions that are rooted in racism. That is how you end up with vague discussions about feelings, incompatible cultures, "values" and so on.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - krageon 5y ago
        > law above religion When the laws come about as functions of entrenched religious thinking, one is not above the other. This value is also not listed on the page you link. > equality Clearly not, as not all refugees are equal. > Democracy You've got me there. Many of the listed values are there for PR purposes: The practicalities of daily living are different or in some aspects even very different.
        koonsolo 5y ago
        > one is not above the other https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_state Take a good look at which countries are not part of that list. You cannot have freedom of religion without it. > Clearly not, as not all refugees are equal. The process seems equal to me: https://www.cgrs.be/en/international-protection/refugee-status#:~:text=To%20obtain%20in%20Belgium%20confirmation,restricted%20for%20a%20specific%20reason https://www.cgrs.be/en/international-protection/refugee-stat....
  - eldaisfish 5y ago
    >When you have an incompatible religion That is a BIG generalisation and assumes there is a compatible religion. This is why Ukrainian propaganda is so dangerous. Poland and Hungary still have massive problems with LGBT rights and general tolerance. All signs point to the fact that Ukraine will be similar if not worse.
    - koonsolo 5y ago
      > assumes there is a compatible religion Of course there is a compatible religion: Take buddhism for example. I agree that Poland and Hungary have problems with LGBT rights, but like I said, that is the 1 or 2 generational gap. Ukraine might indeed have that same problem. But give it a generation or 2. My wife is from Slovakia, and also there you can see the difference between mentality. Newer generations are more tolerant.
- rosndo 5y ago
  You have to drive very far to the west from Kiev before you start seeing nicer, wealthier cities.
- blub 5y ago
  You’re not wrong about Ukraine, but they’re still a lot more European than Syria will ever be and that matters a lot. Still, I also find it ridiculous how the media’s making them look like immaculate heroes. Power of propaganda I guess.
  - galfarragem 5y ago
    All media is biased. Some more, some less, but being unbiased is impossible by definition. Autocratic media is biased in a compulsory way. The problem is when Democratic media becomes activist and start to sell opinions as facts (they learnt that drama and toxicity sells), becoming unshamefully biased and almost matching its counterpart. I'm not sure this is helping at all Ukraine or the world.
- axiosgunnar 5y ago
  Hilarious, one nation is fighting an existential threat, and this dude blabbers out a sentence containing the words > Ukrainian propaganda Unimaginable
galfarragem 5y ago
> In many ways the Ukrainians have succeeded in an information war where the Georgians, Armenians, Sirians, Yemenis have been unfortunately less successful. Ukrainian government is killing it on the "media war" and certainly a case study for the future. It certainly helps that the President is a comedian by trade and backed by producers and screenwriters - they know exactly what people want to ear/see/read. Of course this has also a (huge) negative side but this is another story. Some stuff that makes sense in a movie, doesn't make sense on real life. Scenarios and deaths are real.
belorn 5y ago
In the speeches and statements I have seen, there are a few differences. When addressing the European leaders, the Ukrainian leader speaks English without an interpreter. In addition there aren't any non-christian religious symbols in the image or speech, and when it comes to cultural symbols it is almost exclusively in terms of European union. I have read/listen to a bit of research when it comes to diplomacy and tensions between nations, and a common theme is that its the small things that tend to have a large impact on kinship, trust and cooperation.

eldaisfish 5y ago

koonsolo 5y ago
Lots of EU and NATO countries are post-soviet. The difference is only 1 or 2 generations away. When you have an incompatible religion, it's not generations away, when those generations hold on to that religion. That is the difference between Europeans with an older mentality, and people coming from a religion that doesn't share European values.
- krageon 5y ago
  > European values Which ones would those be?
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    - law above religion - equality - democracy - Separation of powers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers) - ... See for official EU value: https://ec.europa.eu/component-library/eu/about/eu-values/ https://ec.europa.eu/component-library/eu/about/eu-values/
    - eldaisfish 5y ago
      are you confident in claiming that many areas of Poland, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania etc share in all of these values? The crux of the problem here is that people are searching for reasons to justify actions that are rooted in racism. That is how you end up with vague discussions about feelings, incompatible cultures, "values" and so on.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - krageon 5y ago
      > law above religion When the laws come about as functions of entrenched religious thinking, one is not above the other. This value is also not listed on the page you link. > equality Clearly not, as not all refugees are equal. > Democracy You've got me there. Many of the listed values are there for PR purposes: The practicalities of daily living are different or in some aspects even very different.
      - koonsolo 5y ago
        > one is not above the other https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_state Take a good look at which countries are not part of that list. You cannot have freedom of religion without it. > Clearly not, as not all refugees are equal. The process seems equal to me: https://www.cgrs.be/en/international-protection/refugee-status#:~:text=To%20obtain%20in%20Belgium%20confirmation,restricted%20for%20a%20specific%20reason https://www.cgrs.be/en/international-protection/refugee-stat....
- eldaisfish 5y ago
  >When you have an incompatible religion That is a BIG generalisation and assumes there is a compatible religion. This is why Ukrainian propaganda is so dangerous. Poland and Hungary still have massive problems with LGBT rights and general tolerance. All signs point to the fact that Ukraine will be similar if not worse.
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    > assumes there is a compatible religion Of course there is a compatible religion: Take buddhism for example. I agree that Poland and Hungary have problems with LGBT rights, but like I said, that is the 1 or 2 generational gap. Ukraine might indeed have that same problem. But give it a generation or 2. My wife is from Slovakia, and also there you can see the difference between mentality. Newer generations are more tolerant.
rosndo 5y ago
You have to drive very far to the west from Kiev before you start seeing nicer, wealthier cities.
blub 5y ago
You’re not wrong about Ukraine, but they’re still a lot more European than Syria will ever be and that matters a lot. Still, I also find it ridiculous how the media’s making them look like immaculate heroes. Power of propaganda I guess.
- galfarragem 5y ago
  All media is biased. Some more, some less, but being unbiased is impossible by definition. Autocratic media is biased in a compulsory way. The problem is when Democratic media becomes activist and start to sell opinions as facts (they learnt that drama and toxicity sells), becoming unshamefully biased and almost matching its counterpart. I'm not sure this is helping at all Ukraine or the world.
axiosgunnar 5y ago
Hilarious, one nation is fighting an existential threat, and this dude blabbers out a sentence containing the words > Ukrainian propaganda Unimaginable

galfarragem 5y ago

> In many ways the Ukrainians have succeeded in an information war where the Georgians, Armenians, Sirians, Yemenis have been unfortunately less successful. Ukrainian government is killing it on the "media war" and certainly a case study for the future. It certainly helps that the President is a comedian by trade and backed by producers and screenwriters - they know exactly what people want to ear/see/read. Of course this has also a (huge) negative side but this is another story. Some stuff that makes sense in a movie, doesn't make sense on real life. Scenarios and deaths are real.

belorn 5y ago

In the speeches and statements I have seen, there are a few differences. When addressing the European leaders, the Ukrainian leader speaks English without an interpreter. In addition there aren't any non-christian religious symbols in the image or speech, and when it comes to cultural symbols it is almost exclusively in terms of European union. I have read/listen to a bit of research when it comes to diplomacy and tensions between nations, and a common theme is that its the small things that tend to have a large impact on kinship, trust and cooperation.