7 ms·

There's already a number of comments trying to spin this in one racially loaded way or another discrimination loaded way or such. Please stop. I'll try to expla

There's already a number of comments trying to spin this in one racially loaded way or another discrimination loaded way or such. Please stop. I'll try to explain why your take is misguided with a parable which you can no doubt poke countless holes into. Say you've lived in one place your whole life. You have a neighbour, and they've lived their whole life there as well. One day your neighbour comes to you and asks for a hundred bucks because they've fallen on hard times. Now compare this to a stranger on the street asking you for a hundred because they say they've fallen on hard times. People go up and above for Ukraine because they're that neighbour. Many have friends, family and/or relatives there. Many have travelled there. This is not about race, or religion, or any kind of hate. We're helping our neighbour.

SalimoS 5y ago
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >They are ‘civilised’ and ‘look like us’ Yes, and? How is giving compliments being racist to anyone? Is saying 'my girlfriend is smart and beautiful' hurtful to every other women? Is my boss saying 'Brian is smart and hard working' insulting to everyone else? I wish this cringe wokeness and trying to spin everything into racism would stop. I expected far more from a prestigious paper like The Guardian, instead of tabloid trash like this, but I guess they had a woke quota to fulfill, otherwise some activists on Twitter would call them racist if they hadn't called Europe racist first.
  - elloworld1221 5y ago
    If you read the full quotes from the article, these comments aren't compliments, they are comments to contextualize/justify treatment of other refugees. Literally every quote is saying "Ukranians are x, unlike other refugees who are y". That is clearly racism and not "cringe wokeness".
  - hans1729 5y ago
    Its an opinion piece.
- haunter 5y ago
  >but still, this is racism with extra steps Yeah but when the Gulf states do that it's ok https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34173139 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34173139 >fears regarding political stability within their own borders, and into larger questions of civic identity and the notion of what being a citizen of a Gulf state means If a german or french politician says that they are outcasted as a far right extremist
  - elloworld1221 5y ago
    Parent comment didn't mention gulf states once? I'm pretty sure that anyone who is aware of the plight of refugees from Iraq, Syria, Yemen or Afghanistan knows that the Gulf States have blood on their hands from their interventions.
- picsao 5y ago
- gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
  It’s not racism, it’s familiarity and pragmatism. The West has gone above and beyond for Syria, at least my country has. That said, the refugees streaming out of Ukraine are citizens of a western-ish democracy, are NOT young men of fighting age and could adapt to cultural/religious/civic life very quickly in Slavic countries and quite easily elsewhere in Europe. Compare that to all the services you need to integrate someone who doesn’t speak an Indo-European language at all, has a religion counter to the dominant culture, is from an autocracy, and is a bored 18-45 year old guy who is not aware of how to find/exploit opportunities available in your country, and who has worked under a completely foreign system of regulations and education, if they have an education at all. From first and second hand experience with Syrian and African refugees, many have no education because war/instability took the chance from them. Many cannot do the job they had before because either it doesn’t exist or they need licensing. Finally, some got by on nepotism before and are unsuited to the western corporate environment. These people are no more or less human than Ukrainians, but cost a lot more to put somewhere they can flourish, or even just survive.
smackay 5y ago
This is the wrong way to look at it. If Syrian refugees had the media coverage Ukrainian ones do there'd be job boards for them and much more besides. People are reacting to the magnitude of the perceived crisis. Peoples' compassion pretty much knows no borders. If there is any finger-pointing to be done then it's at the mainstream media not at how individuals or groups are trying to help human beings in need.
- robrorcroptrer 5y ago
  This is based on the assumption that it all has to do with media exposure.
- inductive_magic 5y ago
  >If Syrian refugees had the media coverage Ukrainian ones do there'd be job boards for them and much more besides Your confidence in this statement is beyond me. We've been there, Germany 2015, Syria crisis. There was no lack of media representation of the conflict, the victms, etc. Of course the whole "russia vs the world" thing makes the Ukraine-invasion a different ballgame, but no way in hell would you see job boards for Syrians all across Europe if only the media paid enough attention. The media sold and told the story over and over, to anyone that was willing to listen. People just aren't as open to completely foreign cultures and to Islam as they are to Eastern Europe - and frankly, I can't take a claim that diverges from this very basic groundline too serious. Talk to actual people in Europe and they will confirm what I'm saying here. Everyone knows someone from Eastern Europe, we know their culture, they are - like the gp said - our neighbours. Syrians are not. I've met wonderful people amongst the syrian refugees, don't get me wrong. But to claim that there is no difference in sympathy whatsoever is simply ignorant to reality, and I think your audience here deserves better than that.
- scotty79 5y ago
  That's completely wrong. People's compassion at least in Europe is very localized and tribal. The neighbor analogy summs it up perfectly. Don't dismiss it. Learn to understand it.
- hansworst 5y ago
DoingIsLearning 5y ago
No, this looks at Europeans with Rose tinted glasses. I think there is innate tribalism in all of us. We can all rationally fight it and we rationally know what is morally the right thing to do. But it is in our core psychology to look for similarities/differences and identify as close/distance to other people. The Ukrainian government has also made an amazing job at galvanizing EU social media around this. The message is clear, it is us, your european brothers and sisters who are suffering right now, please help. In many ways the Ukrainians have succeeded in an information war where the Georgians, Armenians, Sirians, Yemenis have been unfortunately less successful.
- eldaisfish 5y ago
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    Lots of EU and NATO countries are post-soviet. The difference is only 1 or 2 generations away. When you have an incompatible religion, it's not generations away, when those generations hold on to that religion. That is the difference between Europeans with an older mentality, and people coming from a religion that doesn't share European values.
    - krageon 5y ago
      > European values Which ones would those be?
      - koonsolo 5y ago
        - law above religion - equality - democracy - Separation of powers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers) - ... See for official EU value: https://ec.europa.eu/component-library/eu/about/eu-values/ https://ec.europa.eu/component-library/eu/about/eu-values/
        5y ago
csmpltn 5y ago
> "People go up and above for Ukraine because they're that neighbour" Where do you draw the line on "neighbor"? Why Ukraine but not Syria?
- spaniard89277 5y ago
  I feel like ucranians are fellow europeans. I guess it's the same for Norweigians. If you look for a well-defined and rational response, I don't think there's one. Anyway, I'd like to say that people is being too cynical about this. There has been, and there are right now, many efforts in Europe for supporting and integrating non-european refugees and inmigrants. This "oh look, they care because they're white", well, there's a lot of selection bias right there, and I don't think we should be sorry to care about people we feel it's the same to us. There has been hundreds of thousands of non-european people inmigrating to Europe for years, but somehow we're hypocrites now.
  - csmpltn 5y ago
    > "I feel like ucranians are fellow europeans." > "If you look for a well-defined and rational response, I don't think there's one." The lack of a well-defined and rational response, beyond vague feelings, is what causes this discussion to eventually reduce down to claims of pure racism. We're denying that there's racism and xenophobia involved, whilst simultaneously being unable to explain why we're seeing those differences. I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm merely observing. I hope you too can see why this ambiguity is problematic. > "There has been hundreds of thousands of non-european people inmigrating to Europe for years, but somehow we're hypocrites now." And there are many millions more that - given the same support and openness given to the Ukrainian people now - would leave the war-torn, collapsed countries they were born in and look for refuge in better societies in Europe. But those people aren't getting the same level of support. Why do we treat those groups differently then?
    - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
      >Why do we treat those groups differently then? Because it's much easier and safer to integrate people with the same religion, ethnicity, that come form a peaceful country with a good track record in STEM[1], meaning they have a high chance they will integrate well with the locals and be productive, with a low chance of unemployment, crime and social unrest that usually comes from importing people from countries with a long history of extreme poverty, crime, civil wars, LGBT & human rights abuse, poor education and religious fanatism. It's not racist to see that 2+2=4 and call a spade a spade. [1] Ukraine is 15th place in the world in terms of medal count at the international math Olympiad, ahead of many richer countries like France, Italy, Sweden, Netherlands, Austria, and is home to manufacturers of planes and jet engines and other engineering marvels like the Antonov 225
older 5y ago
Also, Ukrainian software development industry is 200k developers strong. I don't know how big is this industry in Syria, but I suspect it is not even close, unfortunately.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
throw__away7391 5y ago
The contrast could not be more stark. Ukraine has sent their women and children to safety, the men, their leaders, and even many women are staying to fight against overwhelming odds. Literally nobody ever wants a flood of young men into their country. The Russian invasion of Crimea was already basically ignored 8 years ago. I am 100% certain that if the war had gone something closer to how Putin had hoped, if Zelenskyy has fled to the west, if the military had backed down and the people given up, the response would be similar this time as well.
galfarragem 5y ago
> We're helping our neighbour. Cynical view here: We're helping ourselves. We all know how difficult is to find good devs (edited: with subpar compensation) nowadays. The same applies on different fields also. As an anecdote, Portuguese government is _actively_ asking Ukrainian refugees to come to Portugal and sending them directly to areas known for chronic worker shortage. Ukrainians, typically, are not social security abusers and as such well seen by natives here. However, Portugal is not being successful and the low wages are being appointed (by our journalists) as the main reason why. This also means that other countries are competing for them.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >We all know how difficult is to find good devs nowadays. Difficult to find good devs willing to work for peanuts maybe. Companies with a great culture and paying top dollar/euro have no trouble getting an influx of quality people, even willing to grind through several stages of interview practices to get in. By the same logic, I also have trouble finding quality Ferraris. Though I omit to say my budget of $5000 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that good Ferraris are tough to find. >Cynical view here: We're helping ourselves. More like companies are helping themselves here. I'm supporting all Ukrainian refugees, not just the devs, but it's funny to see Norwegian companies cooperate to attract foreign talent and spin this into some benevolent charity work when they're just looking after their interests, to suppress local market wages.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >By the same logic, I also have trouble finding quality Ferraris. Though I omit to say my budget of $5000 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that good Ferraris are tough to find. Can we extend this to more sympathetic/relatable goods? ie. "By the same logic, I also have trouble finding quality GPUs. Though I omit to say my budget of $500 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that good GPUs are tough to find." Or "By the same logic, I also have trouble finding PS5s. Though I omit to say my budget of $500 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that PS5s are tough to find."
rich_sasha 5y ago
It seems unconditional compassion is not natural to human societies of 21st century. Not in Europe, not in North America, not in Russia, not in South-East Asia. I guess we should appreciate any compassion that our societies are moved to. And work on expanding that. Riffing on a biblical quote, who is my neighbour? To a medieval peasant, someone from their villate. To a 19th century citizen, people of their country (most of them). To us, apparently people from some other countries, but not all. It's progress, let's keep up the good work.
- gruez 5y ago
  >unconditional compassion The argument from the other side is that the compassion isn't unconditional, because if they were Syrian or whatever they wouldn't have garnered the same compassion.
2143 5y ago
I think humans are fundamentally biased a little bit. And it's probably a good idea if we collectively work towards eventually eliminating those biases.
jbirer 5y ago
People are addicted to drama and toxicity. Ignore them
_qfhw 5y ago
Respectfully; this forum encourages discussion. It is not good enough to say Ukrainians are neighbours and would integrate better than refugees from other countries. At the expense of devolving into whataboutism, Eastern and Western Europe do have their genuine cultural differences. Will the western world still be as accommodating of Eastern European refugees in ten or twenty years? Let us not speak in parables and downvote legitimate conversation.

SalimoS 5y ago

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
>They are ‘civilised’ and ‘look like us’ Yes, and? How is giving compliments being racist to anyone? Is saying 'my girlfriend is smart and beautiful' hurtful to every other women? Is my boss saying 'Brian is smart and hard working' insulting to everyone else? I wish this cringe wokeness and trying to spin everything into racism would stop. I expected far more from a prestigious paper like The Guardian, instead of tabloid trash like this, but I guess they had a woke quota to fulfill, otherwise some activists on Twitter would call them racist if they hadn't called Europe racist first.
- elloworld1221 5y ago
  If you read the full quotes from the article, these comments aren't compliments, they are comments to contextualize/justify treatment of other refugees. Literally every quote is saying "Ukranians are x, unlike other refugees who are y". That is clearly racism and not "cringe wokeness".
- hans1729 5y ago
  Its an opinion piece.
haunter 5y ago
>but still, this is racism with extra steps Yeah but when the Gulf states do that it's ok https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34173139 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34173139 >fears regarding political stability within their own borders, and into larger questions of civic identity and the notion of what being a citizen of a Gulf state means If a german or french politician says that they are outcasted as a far right extremist
- elloworld1221 5y ago
  Parent comment didn't mention gulf states once? I'm pretty sure that anyone who is aware of the plight of refugees from Iraq, Syria, Yemen or Afghanistan knows that the Gulf States have blood on their hands from their interventions.
picsao 5y ago
gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
It’s not racism, it’s familiarity and pragmatism. The West has gone above and beyond for Syria, at least my country has. That said, the refugees streaming out of Ukraine are citizens of a western-ish democracy, are NOT young men of fighting age and could adapt to cultural/religious/civic life very quickly in Slavic countries and quite easily elsewhere in Europe. Compare that to all the services you need to integrate someone who doesn’t speak an Indo-European language at all, has a religion counter to the dominant culture, is from an autocracy, and is a bored 18-45 year old guy who is not aware of how to find/exploit opportunities available in your country, and who has worked under a completely foreign system of regulations and education, if they have an education at all. From first and second hand experience with Syrian and African refugees, many have no education because war/instability took the chance from them. Many cannot do the job they had before because either it doesn’t exist or they need licensing. Finally, some got by on nepotism before and are unsuited to the western corporate environment. These people are no more or less human than Ukrainians, but cost a lot more to put somewhere they can flourish, or even just survive.

smackay 5y ago

This is the wrong way to look at it. If Syrian refugees had the media coverage Ukrainian ones do there'd be job boards for them and much more besides. People are reacting to the magnitude of the perceived crisis. Peoples' compassion pretty much knows no borders. If there is any finger-pointing to be done then it's at the mainstream media not at how individuals or groups are trying to help human beings in need.

robrorcroptrer 5y ago
This is based on the assumption that it all has to do with media exposure.
inductive_magic 5y ago
>If Syrian refugees had the media coverage Ukrainian ones do there'd be job boards for them and much more besides Your confidence in this statement is beyond me. We've been there, Germany 2015, Syria crisis. There was no lack of media representation of the conflict, the victms, etc. Of course the whole "russia vs the world" thing makes the Ukraine-invasion a different ballgame, but no way in hell would you see job boards for Syrians all across Europe if only the media paid enough attention. The media sold and told the story over and over, to anyone that was willing to listen. People just aren't as open to completely foreign cultures and to Islam as they are to Eastern Europe - and frankly, I can't take a claim that diverges from this very basic groundline too serious. Talk to actual people in Europe and they will confirm what I'm saying here. Everyone knows someone from Eastern Europe, we know their culture, they are - like the gp said - our neighbours. Syrians are not. I've met wonderful people amongst the syrian refugees, don't get me wrong. But to claim that there is no difference in sympathy whatsoever is simply ignorant to reality, and I think your audience here deserves better than that.
scotty79 5y ago
That's completely wrong. People's compassion at least in Europe is very localized and tribal. The neighbor analogy summs it up perfectly. Don't dismiss it. Learn to understand it.
hansworst 5y ago

DoingIsLearning 5y ago

No, this looks at Europeans with Rose tinted glasses. I think there is innate tribalism in all of us. We can all rationally fight it and we rationally know what is morally the right thing to do. But it is in our core psychology to look for similarities/differences and identify as close/distance to other people. The Ukrainian government has also made an amazing job at galvanizing EU social media around this. The message is clear, it is us, your european brothers and sisters who are suffering right now, please help. In many ways the Ukrainians have succeeded in an information war where the Georgians, Armenians, Sirians, Yemenis have been unfortunately less successful.

eldaisfish 5y ago
- koonsolo 5y ago
  Lots of EU and NATO countries are post-soviet. The difference is only 1 or 2 generations away. When you have an incompatible religion, it's not generations away, when those generations hold on to that religion. That is the difference between Europeans with an older mentality, and people coming from a religion that doesn't share European values.
  - krageon 5y ago
    > European values Which ones would those be?
    - koonsolo 5y ago
      - law above religion - equality - democracy - Separation of powers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers) - ... See for official EU value: https://ec.europa.eu/component-library/eu/about/eu-values/ https://ec.europa.eu/component-library/eu/about/eu-values/
      - 5y ago

csmpltn 5y ago

> "People go up and above for Ukraine because they're that neighbour" Where do you draw the line on "neighbor"? Why Ukraine but not Syria?

spaniard89277 5y ago
I feel like ucranians are fellow europeans. I guess it's the same for Norweigians. If you look for a well-defined and rational response, I don't think there's one. Anyway, I'd like to say that people is being too cynical about this. There has been, and there are right now, many efforts in Europe for supporting and integrating non-european refugees and inmigrants. This "oh look, they care because they're white", well, there's a lot of selection bias right there, and I don't think we should be sorry to care about people we feel it's the same to us. There has been hundreds of thousands of non-european people inmigrating to Europe for years, but somehow we're hypocrites now.
- csmpltn 5y ago
  > "I feel like ucranians are fellow europeans." > "If you look for a well-defined and rational response, I don't think there's one." The lack of a well-defined and rational response, beyond vague feelings, is what causes this discussion to eventually reduce down to claims of pure racism. We're denying that there's racism and xenophobia involved, whilst simultaneously being unable to explain why we're seeing those differences. I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm merely observing. I hope you too can see why this ambiguity is problematic. > "There has been hundreds of thousands of non-european people inmigrating to Europe for years, but somehow we're hypocrites now." And there are many millions more that - given the same support and openness given to the Ukrainian people now - would leave the war-torn, collapsed countries they were born in and look for refuge in better societies in Europe. But those people aren't getting the same level of support. Why do we treat those groups differently then?
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >Why do we treat those groups differently then? Because it's much easier and safer to integrate people with the same religion, ethnicity, that come form a peaceful country with a good track record in STEM[1], meaning they have a high chance they will integrate well with the locals and be productive, with a low chance of unemployment, crime and social unrest that usually comes from importing people from countries with a long history of extreme poverty, crime, civil wars, LGBT & human rights abuse, poor education and religious fanatism. It's not racist to see that 2+2=4 and call a spade a spade. [1] Ukraine is 15th place in the world in terms of medal count at the international math Olympiad, ahead of many richer countries like France, Italy, Sweden, Netherlands, Austria, and is home to manufacturers of planes and jet engines and other engineering marvels like the Antonov 225

older 5y ago

Also, Ukrainian software development industry is 200k developers strong. I don't know how big is this industry in Syria, but I suspect it is not even close, unfortunately.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

throw__away7391 5y ago

The contrast could not be more stark. Ukraine has sent their women and children to safety, the men, their leaders, and even many women are staying to fight against overwhelming odds. Literally nobody ever wants a flood of young men into their country. The Russian invasion of Crimea was already basically ignored 8 years ago. I am 100% certain that if the war had gone something closer to how Putin had hoped, if Zelenskyy has fled to the west, if the military had backed down and the people given up, the response would be similar this time as well.

galfarragem 5y ago

> We're helping our neighbour. Cynical view here: We're helping ourselves. We all know how difficult is to find good devs (edited: with subpar compensation) nowadays. The same applies on different fields also. As an anecdote, Portuguese government is _actively_ asking Ukrainian refugees to come to Portugal and sending them directly to areas known for chronic worker shortage. Ukrainians, typically, are not social security abusers and as such well seen by natives here. However, Portugal is not being successful and the low wages are being appointed (by our journalists) as the main reason why. This also means that other countries are competing for them.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
>We all know how difficult is to find good devs nowadays. Difficult to find good devs willing to work for peanuts maybe. Companies with a great culture and paying top dollar/euro have no trouble getting an influx of quality people, even willing to grind through several stages of interview practices to get in. By the same logic, I also have trouble finding quality Ferraris. Though I omit to say my budget of $5000 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that good Ferraris are tough to find. >Cynical view here: We're helping ourselves. More like companies are helping themselves here. I'm supporting all Ukrainian refugees, not just the devs, but it's funny to see Norwegian companies cooperate to attract foreign talent and spin this into some benevolent charity work when they're just looking after their interests, to suppress local market wages.
- gruez 5y ago
  >By the same logic, I also have trouble finding quality Ferraris. Though I omit to say my budget of $5000 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that good Ferraris are tough to find. Can we extend this to more sympathetic/relatable goods? ie. "By the same logic, I also have trouble finding quality GPUs. Though I omit to say my budget of $500 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that good GPUs are tough to find." Or "By the same logic, I also have trouble finding PS5s. Though I omit to say my budget of $500 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that PS5s are tough to find."

rich_sasha 5y ago

It seems unconditional compassion is not natural to human societies of 21st century. Not in Europe, not in North America, not in Russia, not in South-East Asia. I guess we should appreciate any compassion that our societies are moved to. And work on expanding that. Riffing on a biblical quote, who is my neighbour? To a medieval peasant, someone from their villate. To a 19th century citizen, people of their country (most of them). To us, apparently people from some other countries, but not all. It's progress, let's keep up the good work.

gruez 5y ago
>unconditional compassion The argument from the other side is that the compassion isn't unconditional, because if they were Syrian or whatever they wouldn't have garnered the same compassion.

2143 5y ago

I think humans are fundamentally biased a little bit. And it's probably a good idea if we collectively work towards eventually eliminating those biases.

jbirer 5y ago

People are addicted to drama and toxicity. Ignore them

_qfhw 5y ago

Respectfully; this forum encourages discussion. It is not good enough to say Ukrainians are neighbours and would integrate better than refugees from other countries. At the expense of devolving into whataboutism, Eastern and Western Europe do have their genuine cultural differences. Will the western world still be as accommodating of Eastern European refugees in ten or twenty years? Let us not speak in parables and downvote legitimate conversation.