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I would like to see safe haven for Russians who oppose Putin. Currently there is growing Euro hate to all Russians. There was a news segment about a Russian exp

by alecco 5y ago

I would like to see safe haven for Russians who oppose Putin. Currently there is growing Euro hate to all Russians. There was a news segment about a Russian expat who's been campaigning abroad against the regime for over 10 years and now she gets insulted by random people. This was somewhere in Spain but could as well be any other country. They are desperately fleeing the regime to avoid being arrested. Others lost their jobs overnight. Their banks accounts frozen in a crashing currency. Can't sell their homes. Can't take their elderly parents with them (healthcare). Their credit cards don't work abroad (many stuck mid-way without a way to pay for a hotel or the flight to the actual destination like family somewhere). It scares me how people lose their minds to xenophobia, war, and hate. The same people who would've hoped for peace just a few months ago. The same people who ranted for years against the wars in Irak and Afghanistan. There is no nuance. Just blind hate. And media fueling the fire. EDIT: I AM NOT RUSSIAN so stop second guessing me. I just happen to know Russians in this situation. I think OP's site helping Ukranians is a fantastic idea. I just wanted to raise awareness on other people. That's it.

older 5y ago
How do you know which ones of those Russians oppose Putin? Just by asking and trusting that they are being honest? Those opposing Putin are a small minority, most of them are supporting the war even those in academia. Check these ratings: https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/ https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/ Also, they are not risking much by being in opposition. That girl who protested couple of days ago during live broadcast on Russian TV got fined $200. They are risking to lose their lifestyle at most. While Ukrainians are risking to lose their lives.
- scotty79 5y ago
  I think in Russians living abroad majority might oppose Putin or at least want nothing to do with him. I imagine hating Putin and the country he created might be one of the more common reasons of living abroad.
  - older 5y ago
    From my experience it is much bigger share of Russians living abroad who oppose Putin, and I've met many at demonstrations, but it is not a majority. I'd say 50/50. Still much better share compared to those living in Russia (including my relatives).
  - throwaway290 5y ago
    More or less. Some lived outside Russia and supported Putin. (I remember the disheveled guy at the airport trying to get a ticket out of Europe to Russia because he feared war. I don't know his political views but he made a good impression of being pro-Putin to Aeroflot staff, who could not help him anyway.) However, many Russians who could live outside did so for political reasons. Just like I would rather not live in China due to disagreements about what CCP does, I would rather not live in Russia. Before now, every time I went to Russia there was a tinge of fear of political prosecution due to my views, but now the tables have turned significantly. My extreme hate for the war together with the likelihood of being imprisoned for my views means there is no going back.
  - throwaway3b03 5y ago
    I have Russian work colleagues in a western European country. While they don't support Putin (at least not overtly) and don't like the level of power he has acquired, they seem to have an ingrained distrust of the "west", even though the "west" gave them permanent residence, social security, a means of living. They somehow still believe Putin's propaganda, claiming that they're not sure if bioweapons or labs really were found in Ukraine, or generally not trusting western news sources, while somehow still believing Russian ones. So in my experience, a majority of Russians, even those living abroad, really are Putin's puppets.
    - scotty79 5y ago
      I guess it's hard to shake off yhe brainwashing. Especially since fo younger people it was throughout their whole lives.
trhway 5y ago
>Currently there is growing Euro hate to all Russians. there are a lot of reasons for that. There is really something non-human in Russians attacking Ukrainians. Even for me, a Russian well familiar with history and overall situation there, it is still hard to believe that Russians so easily went into that war. That makes anybody naturally question their existing perception of what Russians really is, and that is where the "xeno" feeling comes from. Just look how pretty much whole Russia celebrates the "Z" symbol of the invasion https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/09/letter-z-russia-symbol-pro-war/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/09/letter-z-rus... https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1500506408101593094 https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1500506408101593094 There is no meaningful difference between Germans celebrating swastika and their leader in 1939 and Russians celebrating "Z" and their leader in 2022. Europe's reaction isn't surprising here.
- krageon 5y ago
  > There is really something non-human in Russians attacking Ukrainians. This reasoning/process is dehumanisation, and is the secret sauce in getting people to commit atrocities against other people. No matter how well-intentioned you yourself might be, please do not perpetuate dehumanising language.
- BrBone 5y ago
  Russians have been cut off from an alternative view of the situation: ALL opposition media have been blocked on the Internet and their broadcasting licenses have been revoked. Only propaganda media with the position that 1. There is no war, there is a special operation. 2. The special operation is carried out to help eliminate the Nazis in Donbass, who tortured eastern Ukrainians for 8 years It's hard to step into the shoes of the average Russian when you have access to information. Truth be told, access to alternative media began to end more than 10 years ago, and has only accelerated over time. The majority in any country always consumes the mainstream media available in that country. In Russia, there is only one point of view to choose from. Only 10-30% of the population knows how to bypass blockages and know where to look for information.
detaro 5y ago
> There is no nuance. Just blind hate. That's where your comment falls in exactly the same trap it decries. No, there is not just blind hate. Yes, some people act badly and shouldn't, but it does not generalize that way.
jnsaff2 5y ago
That's an interesting whataboutist take. I would mostly agree, but: - fleeing your home country because its inhabitants (including yourself) have let it go to shits and you have a choice between keeping on tolerating what has been always there or just NOW deciding to flee vs. - fleeing your home country which for the last few years has started going to the right direction, has hope of becoming part of a much more welcoming and tolerant world .. because some thugs are literally killing your family, bombing your house and you either flee or risk dying. There is no question which of those two uses up all of my empathy. Once the war has stopped, once all who have lost their actual home have it back, then we may have empathy for the people who let this happen.
- eldaisfish 5y ago
  Russians in Russia don't have a choice, please stop implying that Russian elections are either fair or of any consequence. People on the internet love to throw around the idea that citizens of oppressive regimes have a say in the direction or actions of that regime. Neither Russian nor Chinese nor North Korean nor Iranian citizens have any say in what their respective governments do.
  - rich_sasha 5y ago
    They don't, but Putin and his wars tend to be very popular in Russia.
  - older 5y ago
    Do you have any relatives in Russia? I have a lot and my experience talking to them says you're wrong. Your attempt to present Russia as some sort of NK-like dystopia is completely misguided.
  - jnsaff2 5y ago
    Bullshit. The country is not 140M slaves without any agency. The system is effective, but people are complicit. Why they still are, I don't know. I grew up on soviet union and we escaped the first chance we got. But them behind the border decided to accept whatever they did. A little explanation from our neighbors who also have to put up with the russian threat all the time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9KretXqJw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9KretXqJw
emptysongglass 5y ago
I don't think this is true. I have received a lot of support among friends, work and my broader social network helping to get out an anti-war Russian from the country. This is spread between Denmark and Germany.
- alecco 5y ago
  I know this is happening in Spain, France, and UK. And I've heard it's happening in other places. YMMV
hkpack 5y ago
You might be thinking that it's a Putin's war, but I can assure you, Russian people are wholeheartedly support the war. Even people who live abroad. > It scares me how people lose their minds to xenophobia, war, and hate Because while some russians are experiencing "hate and xenophobia", civilian people is Ukraine are being brutally killed in thousands using unguided bombs, artillery strikes or MLRSs. For you, dead or injured children are just a picture you can choose not to look at, but for a huge number of Ukrainians, it is the reality.
- cute_boi 5y ago
  Can you please justify "Russian people are wholeheartedly support the war". I know you are making this specious statement because if this was the case why Russian government do shenanigans during election? Clearly, many people doesn't support him. People seem to forget 1 person can control hundreds cattle. And there is high chance, 1 police can easily control 20 people. I have a lot of friends in Russia, and they all share the same sentiment. Many people don't like to live in autocracy. even with propaganda, unless their living standard is extremely high.
  - hkpack 5y ago
    It is very difficult to put such complex topic into a post, so let me summarise with bullet points. Let me know what parts to expand or provide sources for: 1. Russia tried to get ahold of Ukraine for multiple centuries already, so it is engraved in the culture of both Ukrainians and Russians. 2. The last time Ukraine lost a war to Russia was in 1920, which was followed by a century of terror and genocide [0] from Russian side which ended in 1991 by the collapse of USSR. 3. Because Ukraine was always considered a rebellious state, a manufactured USSR propaganda was that Russians are "big russians" and Ukrainians are "small Russians". The point was that big Russians where superior in every way, while small russians where uneducated villagers. 4. Ukrainian culture is being denied by Russians for more than a century, by means that Ukrainian language was forbidden, and all major cultural figures were either killed or displaced to Gulags. 5. The collapse of the USSR and the weakening of Russia allowed some of these to be reversed and Ukrainian language and culture started to be getting revived. 6. 30 years later from the collapse of USSR, Russians are still in a full denial of Ukrainian culture and think that Ukrainians are just Russians with anti-russia nazism. So culturally, Russians are sure that killing all the nazis will return Ukraine to their "brotherhood" and hence wholeheartedly support this "special operation to denazify Ukraine" as it is called by Russian media. Source: have some of the family in Russia as well as some russian family members in Ukraine, who are completely sure they are helping people of Ukraine right now and support this. All of the deaths and suffering are justified for them, because the "anti-russian nazis" have to be killed anyway. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

by alecco 5y ago

older 5y ago

How do you know which ones of those Russians oppose Putin? Just by asking and trusting that they are being honest? Those opposing Putin are a small minority, most of them are supporting the war even those in academia. Check these ratings: https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/ https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/ Also, they are not risking much by being in opposition. That girl who protested couple of days ago during live broadcast on Russian TV got fined $200. They are risking to lose their lifestyle at most. While Ukrainians are risking to lose their lives.

scotty79 5y ago
I think in Russians living abroad majority might oppose Putin or at least want nothing to do with him. I imagine hating Putin and the country he created might be one of the more common reasons of living abroad.
- older 5y ago
  From my experience it is much bigger share of Russians living abroad who oppose Putin, and I've met many at demonstrations, but it is not a majority. I'd say 50/50. Still much better share compared to those living in Russia (including my relatives).
- throwaway290 5y ago
  More or less. Some lived outside Russia and supported Putin. (I remember the disheveled guy at the airport trying to get a ticket out of Europe to Russia because he feared war. I don't know his political views but he made a good impression of being pro-Putin to Aeroflot staff, who could not help him anyway.) However, many Russians who could live outside did so for political reasons. Just like I would rather not live in China due to disagreements about what CCP does, I would rather not live in Russia. Before now, every time I went to Russia there was a tinge of fear of political prosecution due to my views, but now the tables have turned significantly. My extreme hate for the war together with the likelihood of being imprisoned for my views means there is no going back.
- throwaway3b03 5y ago
  I have Russian work colleagues in a western European country. While they don't support Putin (at least not overtly) and don't like the level of power he has acquired, they seem to have an ingrained distrust of the "west", even though the "west" gave them permanent residence, social security, a means of living. They somehow still believe Putin's propaganda, claiming that they're not sure if bioweapons or labs really were found in Ukraine, or generally not trusting western news sources, while somehow still believing Russian ones. So in my experience, a majority of Russians, even those living abroad, really are Putin's puppets.
  - scotty79 5y ago
    I guess it's hard to shake off yhe brainwashing. Especially since fo younger people it was throughout their whole lives.

trhway 5y ago

>Currently there is growing Euro hate to all Russians. there are a lot of reasons for that. There is really something non-human in Russians attacking Ukrainians. Even for me, a Russian well familiar with history and overall situation there, it is still hard to believe that Russians so easily went into that war. That makes anybody naturally question their existing perception of what Russians really is, and that is where the "xeno" feeling comes from. Just look how pretty much whole Russia celebrates the "Z" symbol of the invasion https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/09/letter-z-russia-symbol-pro-war/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/09/letter-z-rus... https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1500506408101593094 https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1500506408101593094 There is no meaningful difference between Germans celebrating swastika and their leader in 1939 and Russians celebrating "Z" and their leader in 2022. Europe's reaction isn't surprising here.

krageon 5y ago
> There is really something non-human in Russians attacking Ukrainians. This reasoning/process is dehumanisation, and is the secret sauce in getting people to commit atrocities against other people. No matter how well-intentioned you yourself might be, please do not perpetuate dehumanising language.
BrBone 5y ago
Russians have been cut off from an alternative view of the situation: ALL opposition media have been blocked on the Internet and their broadcasting licenses have been revoked. Only propaganda media with the position that 1. There is no war, there is a special operation. 2. The special operation is carried out to help eliminate the Nazis in Donbass, who tortured eastern Ukrainians for 8 years It's hard to step into the shoes of the average Russian when you have access to information. Truth be told, access to alternative media began to end more than 10 years ago, and has only accelerated over time. The majority in any country always consumes the mainstream media available in that country. In Russia, there is only one point of view to choose from. Only 10-30% of the population knows how to bypass blockages and know where to look for information.

detaro 5y ago

> There is no nuance. Just blind hate. That's where your comment falls in exactly the same trap it decries. No, there is not just blind hate. Yes, some people act badly and shouldn't, but it does not generalize that way.

jnsaff2 5y ago

That's an interesting whataboutist take. I would mostly agree, but: - fleeing your home country because its inhabitants (including yourself) have let it go to shits and you have a choice between keeping on tolerating what has been always there or just NOW deciding to flee vs. - fleeing your home country which for the last few years has started going to the right direction, has hope of becoming part of a much more welcoming and tolerant world .. because some thugs are literally killing your family, bombing your house and you either flee or risk dying. There is no question which of those two uses up all of my empathy. Once the war has stopped, once all who have lost their actual home have it back, then we may have empathy for the people who let this happen.

eldaisfish 5y ago
Russians in Russia don't have a choice, please stop implying that Russian elections are either fair or of any consequence. People on the internet love to throw around the idea that citizens of oppressive regimes have a say in the direction or actions of that regime. Neither Russian nor Chinese nor North Korean nor Iranian citizens have any say in what their respective governments do.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  They don't, but Putin and his wars tend to be very popular in Russia.
- older 5y ago
  Do you have any relatives in Russia? I have a lot and my experience talking to them says you're wrong. Your attempt to present Russia as some sort of NK-like dystopia is completely misguided.
- jnsaff2 5y ago
  Bullshit. The country is not 140M slaves without any agency. The system is effective, but people are complicit. Why they still are, I don't know. I grew up on soviet union and we escaped the first chance we got. But them behind the border decided to accept whatever they did. A little explanation from our neighbors who also have to put up with the russian threat all the time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9KretXqJw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9KretXqJw

emptysongglass 5y ago

I don't think this is true. I have received a lot of support among friends, work and my broader social network helping to get out an anti-war Russian from the country. This is spread between Denmark and Germany.

alecco 5y ago
I know this is happening in Spain, France, and UK. And I've heard it's happening in other places. YMMV

hkpack 5y ago

You might be thinking that it's a Putin's war, but I can assure you, Russian people are wholeheartedly support the war. Even people who live abroad. > It scares me how people lose their minds to xenophobia, war, and hate Because while some russians are experiencing "hate and xenophobia", civilian people is Ukraine are being brutally killed in thousands using unguided bombs, artillery strikes or MLRSs. For you, dead or injured children are just a picture you can choose not to look at, but for a huge number of Ukrainians, it is the reality.

cute_boi 5y ago
Can you please justify "Russian people are wholeheartedly support the war". I know you are making this specious statement because if this was the case why Russian government do shenanigans during election? Clearly, many people doesn't support him. People seem to forget 1 person can control hundreds cattle. And there is high chance, 1 police can easily control 20 people. I have a lot of friends in Russia, and they all share the same sentiment. Many people don't like to live in autocracy. even with propaganda, unless their living standard is extremely high.
- hkpack 5y ago
  It is very difficult to put such complex topic into a post, so let me summarise with bullet points. Let me know what parts to expand or provide sources for: 1. Russia tried to get ahold of Ukraine for multiple centuries already, so it is engraved in the culture of both Ukrainians and Russians. 2. The last time Ukraine lost a war to Russia was in 1920, which was followed by a century of terror and genocide [0] from Russian side which ended in 1991 by the collapse of USSR. 3. Because Ukraine was always considered a rebellious state, a manufactured USSR propaganda was that Russians are "big russians" and Ukrainians are "small Russians". The point was that big Russians where superior in every way, while small russians where uneducated villagers. 4. Ukrainian culture is being denied by Russians for more than a century, by means that Ukrainian language was forbidden, and all major cultural figures were either killed or displaced to Gulags. 5. The collapse of the USSR and the weakening of Russia allowed some of these to be reversed and Ukrainian language and culture started to be getting revived. 6. 30 years later from the collapse of USSR, Russians are still in a full denial of Ukrainian culture and think that Ukrainians are just Russians with anti-russia nazism. So culturally, Russians are sure that killing all the nazis will return Ukraine to their "brotherhood" and hence wholeheartedly support this "special operation to denazify Ukraine" as it is called by Russian media. Source: have some of the family in Russia as well as some russian family members in Ukraine, who are completely sure they are helping people of Ukraine right now and support this. All of the deaths and suffering are justified for them, because the "anti-russian nazis" have to be killed anyway. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor