5 ms·

> A -permanent- hour change would surely be less harmful than changing said hours twice a year. If you ask actual scientists who research this topic, you get a

by sampo 5y ago

> A -permanent- hour change would surely be less harmful than changing said hours twice a year. If you ask actual scientists who research this topic, you get a different answer: "The authors take the position that, based on comparisons of large populations living in DST or ST or on western versus eastern edges of time zones, the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently" https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0748730419854197 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541... So, permanent standard time is better than switching, but switching is better than permanent summer time.

WithinReason 5y ago
That article mentions the downsides of switching from ST to DST, but doesn't mention the downsides of switching back. It's as biased as it gets. If you already know what outcome you want it's easy to assemble evidence that supports that position, but it's not science, and this article is one of the best examples of that I've ever seen.
- sampo 5y ago
  It's a position paper. It posits an expert option, based on the research that is listed in the references. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position_paper
  - WithinReason 5y ago
    If the paper is not about deciding what the best option is, why did you link it?
    - sampo 5y ago
      > If the paper is not about deciding what the best option is The paper is about the best option: "the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently".
    - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
      The author of the paper has examined the body of research and come to an informed conclusion, which they are sharing alongside their reasoning. Should the author instead present a case they think is wrong?
jwarden 5y ago
I don't think this article has made that case at all. They are correct that there are negative health effects for people being on the western edge of time zones because their social clocks are earlier than their biological clocks. But this is because people synchronize their social clocks with people in their time zones. But if an entire timezone shifts by an hour, they will naturally adjust their social clocks. As a thought experiment, imagine shifting the time zone by 12 hours, so midnight was called noon and noon was called midnight. People would simply shift their social clocks by 12 hours to adjust. An actual example of this is Spain, which since WWII has been on the central European time zone, even though it is in Western Europe. According to this article, people in Spain should have more health problems and shorter lifespans, because their social clock is so much earlier than their body clocks. However as everyone who has ever been to Spain knows, the social clock in Spain does not have the same relationship to the wall clock as it does in other countries. In fact, relative to say the US, the social clock in Spain seems to be shifted a good two hours, for example with dinner at 9pm or 10pm. That seems like a very late hour for dinner, but relative to the sun that's more like 8pm.
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  Isn't it also common in Spain to take a nap in the early afternoon?
Ekaros 5y ago
So maybe moving to different timezone would make more sense? Start using the zone that is closest to where majority of population reside. Or even use more than one zone?

by sampo 5y ago

WithinReason 5y ago

That article mentions the downsides of switching from ST to DST, but doesn't mention the downsides of switching back. It's as biased as it gets. If you already know what outcome you want it's easy to assemble evidence that supports that position, but it's not science, and this article is one of the best examples of that I've ever seen.

sampo 5y ago
It's a position paper. It posits an expert option, based on the research that is listed in the references. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position_paper
- WithinReason 5y ago
  If the paper is not about deciding what the best option is, why did you link it?
  - sampo 5y ago
    > If the paper is not about deciding what the best option is The paper is about the best option: "the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently".
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    The author of the paper has examined the body of research and come to an informed conclusion, which they are sharing alongside their reasoning. Should the author instead present a case they think is wrong?

jwarden 5y ago

I don't think this article has made that case at all. They are correct that there are negative health effects for people being on the western edge of time zones because their social clocks are earlier than their biological clocks. But this is because people synchronize their social clocks with people in their time zones. But if an entire timezone shifts by an hour, they will naturally adjust their social clocks. As a thought experiment, imagine shifting the time zone by 12 hours, so midnight was called noon and noon was called midnight. People would simply shift their social clocks by 12 hours to adjust. An actual example of this is Spain, which since WWII has been on the central European time zone, even though it is in Western Europe. According to this article, people in Spain should have more health problems and shorter lifespans, because their social clock is so much earlier than their body clocks. However as everyone who has ever been to Spain knows, the social clock in Spain does not have the same relationship to the wall clock as it does in other countries. In fact, relative to say the US, the social clock in Spain seems to be shifted a good two hours, for example with dinner at 9pm or 10pm. That seems like a very late hour for dinner, but relative to the sun that's more like 8pm.

Wowfunhappy 5y ago
Isn't it also common in Spain to take a nap in the early afternoon?

Ekaros 5y ago

So maybe moving to different timezone would make more sense? Start using the zone that is closest to where majority of population reside. Or even use more than one zone?