15 ms·

I am extremely surprised at all the people who are against this, saying that "Making DST permanent forces people to wake up earlier." I am not sure I know a sin

• dheera 5y ago
  > I am not sure I know a single person whose morning wake-up time is dictated by the rise of the sun Well now you do I do everything in UTC, don't use daylight savings, and I do set my wake up time based on sunrise
  • chrisan 5y ago
    Clearly you must understand you are in the minority and most of the world have jobs requiring a set start time. And once you partner with another you must now hope you both can be afforded that luxury of a job. Despite working remotely since 2008 I'm married to someone who works at a hospital and must be there by 7am. Getting woken up and trying to fall back asleep is much worse than just going to bed with her and waking up with her to get uninterrupted sleep. Add on kids to that equation who must be at the bus stop at a certain time and the number of working households who can wake up with the sun is minuscule.
    • dheera 5y ago
      > Clearly you must understand you are in the minority and most of the world have jobs requiring a set start time. This sounds like internet forum flamebait. "Clearly?" I have a relatively consistent job start time around 9am on most days which I think is quite possibly the median start time of all jobs and is well after sunrise. > I'm married to someone who works at a hospital and must be there by 7am I would hypothesize that the majority of people are not married to people who need to be at their jobs at 7am. For those that do, I imagine sunrise is not really much of a factor anyway, they will probably be getting up before sunrise regardless.
      • jameshart 5y ago
        > I would hypothesize that the majority of people are not married to people who need to be at their jobs at 7am. BLS collect data on this in the 'American Time Use Survey'. According to https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2015/article/night-owls-and-early-birds.htm https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2015/article/night-owls-an... 29% of people are working at their main place of employment at 7am on any given day. 52% are at work at 8am. The time use survey doesn't distinguish though between people who are at work at 7am coming up to the end of a night shift vs those who are at work at 7am at the start of a day shift. Regardless, it certainly gives the impression that households where at least one working adult has to be at work by 7 are not freakish outliers. The reality of construction, retail, cleaning, healthcare, childcare, transport and many other common lines of work is early starts. Many of these jobs aren't early directly because they line up with daylight, though - they're early because they need to get started before the rest of the workforce begins its day, because they exist in service of it. So if we all agree 'well, sure, lawyers can put up with a few more dark mornings in December', we're implicitly also deciding 'and baristas can have dark starts from October through to March'.
• emtel 5y ago
  > Everyone I know wakes up whatever time that their work tells them to. Uh, yes, that's the point - and many businesses and schools will stick to a consistent nominal time (like 8am) which will now be one hour earlier in real terms.
  • beambot 5y ago
    > [...] which will now be one hour earlier in real terms. "Relative" terms -- i.e. relative to sunrise. Eliminating daylight savings means that all times are now "real" terms.
    • emtel 5y ago
      Eliminating DST would mean that. But this bill makes DST permanent, which means that nominal noon will forever be "real" 1pm, which means sunrise will always be one hour later than it otherwise would be.
      • CydeWeys 5y ago
        It's all arbitrary anyway. There's no natural law of the world that something called an "hour" exists and that a day is split up into 24 of them, or that the hour called "12" is the one that necessarily corresponds to solar noon (or midnight).
      • thehappypm 5y ago
        For the four months a year that Standard Time currently operates, sure.
  • deleted 5y ago
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• hertzrat 5y ago
  Isn’t this just some random Twitter account? There isn’t even a link to a real source
  • ebrewste 5y ago
    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senate-approves-bill-that-would-make-daylight-savings-time-permanent-2023-2022-03-15/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senate-approves-bill-tha...
    • black6 5y ago
      > The change would help enable children to play outdoors later... The change would help enable the executive class to play golf after work hours...
• snek_case 5y ago
  I think this is kind of a conflict between those who are morning people and those who aren't. Many morning people would prefer to have that sunlight in the morning. I'm not at all a morning person and I'd rather have that sunlight after work when I can actually benefit from it.
  • af16090 5y ago
    Speak for yourself, I'm a night owl and I find it much harder to wake up in the morning when it's dark outside. Permanent DST would only make this worse in the winter.
    • bfung 5y ago
      Speak for yourself, I’m also a night owl and I wake up when my alarm wakes me up. Then I read on my phone which shines enough glow on me that I can’t get back to sleep. </sarcasm> don’t care about it one way or other. Glad that junior devs in the future will have less time related bugs in their code.
    • asdff 5y ago
      Get a timer for your lamp.
    • oceanghost 5y ago
      I'm the same way. If you haven't looked into it, you might want a "sunrise clock" of about 10,000lux if possible. This assumes you don't have a partner who would be bothered by it :-)
      • gpvos 5y ago
        I had one, but it turned out not to be cat-proof.
        • snek_case 5y ago
          Seems like you should be able to cat-proof it ;)
• fnordpiglet 5y ago
  For folks with seasonal affective disorder, this makes winter even more hellacious. Timing of light and absence of light is critical - early morning light exposure greatly benefits people with SAD.
  • eurasiantiger 5y ago
    Buy a wake-up light, then. We can’t force everyone to adapt to other people’s disorders.
    • bart_spoon 5y ago
      Regardless of whether DST is implemented or not, you will be forcing someone to adapt to other people’s preferences.
      • eurasiantiger 5y ago
        That is not a very good argument.
    • bayindirh 5y ago
      Wake-up light doesn't work for everyone (e.g. me). Not having affected by the light as much doesn't give anyone powers to tell others what to do.
  • keerthiko 5y ago
    I think for folks with any kind of seasonal affective disorder, having a fixed time on the clock year-round is still beneficial. Take more vacation in winter. Push for slightly more flexible work hours or at least a later first-meeting-of-the-day.
    • smegger001 5y ago
      yeah if your employer gives shit. but there are millions of shift workers and they are at their employers mercy.
  • 5y ago
• qiskit 5y ago
  > I am not sure I know a single person whose morning wake-up time is dictated by the rise of the sun. I try to when I can. But you are right. Most people's lives revolve around work. For most of human existence, our lives revolved around the sun. Now it revolves around a job.
  • Barrin92 5y ago
    >For most of human existence, our lives revolved around the sun. Now it revolves around a job. I blame our corporate reality as much as the next guy but tbh even without work most people's lives don't exactly revolve around the sun. Or else the clubs on the weekends would be empty
• carabiner 5y ago
  Circadian rhythms and all that. The body reacts to sunlight. It's been shown that auto accidents are more common when people wake in darkness as the brain is still spinning up. It's why we use f.lux to help us go to sleep.
• Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  I think the problem is that people don't understand what "permanent Daylights Savings Time" really means. If you ask "Would you like the sun to set later in the evening?" most people will say yes. Who doesn't like more sunlight? If you ask "Would you rather go to bed early and wake up early, or go to bed later and wake up later?" most people will choose to stay up late and sleep in the next day. There might be some disagreement from early risers, but consider when most people choose to sleep during the weekend. Everyone thinks of Daylights Savings Time as "yay, more sunlight," without realizing it also requires them to wake up earlier, relative to their circadian rhythms.
  • teaearlgraycold 5y ago
    Circadian rhythms can adjust once you’ve been on a schedule for a couple of weeks.
    • Wowfunhappy 5y ago
      Only partially! They're heavily influenced by the time the sun rises. Your body's internal clock is actually 24 hours 11 minutes long on average. The only reason it doesn't drift hopelessly out of sync is that the sunrise "resets" it each day! (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/1999/07/human-biological-clock-set-back-an-hour/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/1999/07/human-biologi...)
      • zekrioca 5y ago
        What about countries with short sun lights during the winter, and large sunlight during summer?
        • Wowfunhappy 5y ago
          What about them? (Sorry, not being coy, I genuinely don't understand where you're going with the question.)
          • 5y ago
• dec0dedab0de 5y ago
  I've been working from home for 7+ years, and I mostly let the sun wake me up. I never would have been able to do that in the winter when I was commuting, but it is very nice. I am totally in favor of this though, I was ranting about it to a friend on Sunday.
  • ignu 5y ago
    normalize work starting two hours after dawn. (i think i'm only half joking) also then just move everyone to GMT for the hell of it.
• downrightmike 5y ago
  I'd rather have only two hours from coast to coast. Of course they want to make us all get up earlier all year long.
• gh0std3v 5y ago
  I don't care about whether there's more sunshine in the morning or not (that's why I have blinds!). What I do care about is the fact that DST introduces needless complexity into the task of keeping time. I know it's stupid, but I just think DST is really unnecessary because of the fact that we have to adjust the clock on our microwaves, ovens, and cars. Not to mention, because not everyone observes DST, it leads to a lot of additional complexity when scheduling international meetings. Overall, regardless of your preferences, the world would be better if we didn't have to adjust the clock for no reason.
  • deleted 5y ago
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  • cylon13 5y ago
    Making DST permanent in this context means never changing the clocks again. So what was once "daylight savings time" is now just "time" and no more clock changes. Just wanted to make sure you were aware, since your view is actually popular and your wish has been granted (if you live in the US).
    • eru 5y ago
      You could also say, the US abolished DST but shifter their timezones one slot to the east.
  • Fabricio20 5y ago
    I'm sorry, but I have to nitpick a bit here. > DST is really unnecessary because of the fact that we have to adjust the clock on our microwaves, ovens, and cars While that may make it a hassle, it doesn't make it unnecessary, DST has a real benefit - giving an extra hour of sunlight after you leave work, an hour you couldn't use otherwise as you would either be sleeping or at work. Also being a bit tech-headed here but time sync has been a solved problem in IT for quite a while, NTP and all that :P. > it leads to a lot of additional complexity when scheduling international meetings We already have to deal with timezones, does DST really make that difference? Can't you schedule the meeting at 4PM EST and whoever is in that area figures out if it's 4PM or 5PM? Also google calendar and all that.
• extheat 5y ago
  I totally agree. That extra hour in the evening after work/wherever in the winters is actually quite pleasant, and having it artificially taken away when the clocks go back pretty is pretty gloomy.
• putnambr 5y ago
  I would love having more sun after work, but I don't know that it's worth the tradeoff of safety. On the shortest days the sun rises at 8:18am for me, so I usually start biking to work shortly after sunrise. On DST that sunrise would be 9:18am, well after my daily standup time. I'd be biking in twilight, if not nautical night. I already hate biking in the dark for safety reasons, I'd probably start driving more.
  • sethhochberg 5y ago
    I don't know what part of the country you're in, but some of us are already making this tradeoff with the current setup. In NYC, a typical winter sunrise is shortly after 7am - before many people are riding to work, myself included. A typical winter sunset is well before 5pm, so the entire evening commute is dark. When the days are very short in winter to begin with, and you spend a third of them out and about, someone somewhere is going to be out and about before or after dark.
    • thehappypm 5y ago
      They’re probably in the PNW. In the PNW winter, days are extremely short, there isn’t much you can do to have daylight on two commutes when there’s such short days. We in the Northeast would have much better centered days in DST year round though.
  • datavirtue 5y ago
    You are supposed be to be lit up like a flashing Christmas tree anyway. I don't know why my fellow cyclists insist on rolling the dice when nearly everyone on the road is texting or having a screaming match with someone on their phone.
  • CydeWeys 5y ago
    As a daily bike commuter, I have the opposite problem. I never bike to work in the morning before the sun rises (not even close), but in the winter the sun is setting before 5pm which leaves my entire ride home in darkness. Having more light in the evening would help a lot. It also seems to me like your job starts a bit early in the day, relative to most tech jobs anyway. If I get in before 10 I'm usually the first one there in the morning.
• cwp 5y ago
  Count me as one of those against it. I'm all for not changing our clocks anymore, but DST is stupid. If you want to get up earlier and have more daylight in the evening, great, do that. If you want to get up later so it's not dark when you leave in the morning, sure, makes sense. And if you want to change your schedule as the year progresses to adapt to the seasons, I'm with you. The real problem is that we have this weird idea that our whole society has to operate synchronously. And hey, I get it, some groups of people do have to coordinate with each other. An assembly line won't work if people show up whenever. But most people aren't in that situation and even that assembly line doesn't have to be synchronized with all the other assembly lines in the country. Heck, it might even be a good thing if we didn't all drive to work at the same time... We have to agree on what time it is so that we can coordinate, and as long as we're doing that, let's agree on something that's not a lie. If we're going to meet at noon, the sun should be straight over head, damnit.
  • bovermyer 5y ago
    Both standard time and daylight saving time are arbitrary. Sunrise and sunset times shift throughout the year based on multiple factors. It would be unreasonable to try and mandate a time system that always made 12:00 exactly when the sun is directly overhead. Timekeeping systems are meant to coordinate human activity, yes, but if you're calling daylight saving time a lie... then so is standard time, and all other timekeeping systems, for that matter.
    • ghaff 5y ago
      And depending upon whether you are far east or west in a timezone, they are functionally identical.
  • mattbk1 5y ago
    "If we're going to meet at noon, the sun should be straight over head, damnit." Absolutely.
  • mattcwilson 5y ago
    Oh man - this was my position as well for a long time. And then I realized that you can’t even count on “high noon” meaning much at all, DST or not, because using solar noon is basically the same thing as having arbitrarily many timezones for each unique longitudinal point on Earth. Now I’m tempted to go full UTC and to hell with all of it https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2019/01/01/this-is-how-the-sun-moves-in-the-sky-throughout-the-year/?sh=69503f347303 https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2019/01/01/this... https://earthscience.stackexchange.com/questions/6920/why-doesnt-the-sun-reach-its-highest-point-overhead-at-exactly-1200-noon https://earthscience.stackexchange.com/questions/6920/why-do...
• giantg2 5y ago
  All of this could be moot if China pursues/completes its plan of putting artificial "moons" up to provide 8 times the light of a full moon. Then it would be relatively light all the time.
  • smegger001 5y ago
    well that just seems like the worst sort of idea. lets just totally screw over nocturnal animals
    • mbg721 5y ago
      We had a series of town-hall meetings about it at 11 AM on Tuesdays, and nobody objected.
  • scotuswroteus 5y ago
    G.O.A.T. analysis right here
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
• _ph_ 5y ago
  In the end, almost all persons wake-up time are dictated by the rise of the sun. Not in the sense that you always rise with sunrise - that makes less sense the more north you go, but that the day rythm is highly dependant on the rythm of sunlight. People are strongly opposed to wake before sunraise, so most time schemes try to minimize that, without having darkness way too early. The typical day schedules are arranged with the idea, that the sun is highest not to late after noon. Permanent DST will have an obvious consequence: times will shift. Work and schools will start and end an hour later. You won't get more sun after work. TANSTAFL
  • chrisan 5y ago
    How are you not getting more sun after work? In the winter the sun is always setting way too soon compared to summer. The far east coast sees the sunset at 4:18PM on the winter solstice. Most people aren't even off work by then.
    • _ph_ 5y ago
      Time schedules are heavily influenced by the sun rise in winter. Thats the biggest bareer in the time schedules. People have problems getting up long before sunrise. That is, why traditional time schedules try to minimize this around the year while balancing of course with the sun set times. Permanent DST most likely will mean that schools and jobs start one hour later and consequently end one hour later.
      • sarchertech 5y ago
        In large parts of the country for large parts of the year, school starts early enough that parents in student have to wake up before sunrise. They’ve pushed back start times in decades, I doubt they’ll do it now. Also many many jobs with standard hours (not talking about 3rd shift, or the guy who makes the donuts) start at 8am, which in most of the country is early enough that you have to wake up before sunrise in the winter.
      • 8n4vidtmkvmk 5y ago
        i think I'll just work an hour less in the winter. nice being on salary sometimes
• ilovesunlight 5y ago
  They mean 1 hour earlier relative to the sun cycle, and they are correct. Because the sun strongly influences our circadian rhythm, this is the correct frame of reference, from a health standpoint, not wall time. If you get up at 8 every day, you're getting up ~2 hours after dawn (depending on date/location). When DST hits, 7 becomes 8, and you're getting up ~1 hour after dawn.
• stretchwithme 5y ago
  Also, numbers on a clock are arbitrarily assigned. Arbitrarily changing them doesn't change anything fundamental. It's not like life is radically different on the east and west sides of a time zone either.
• kurthr 5y ago
  I am against it, because there will no longer be a time during which you do something and still viably claim to have never done it. I have never eaten a Tommy's burger with chili-fries (except between the minutes of 1:00 and 1:59 during fall back). I can account for 24 hours of every day (except spring forward) of every year. Ok, I'm actually for it.
  • astrange 5y ago
    You can still get born on Feb 29th to age slower.
• rayiner 5y ago
  > I am not sure I know a single person whose morning wake-up time is dictated by the rise of the sun. So you don’t know why farmers, laborers, gardeners, contractors, garbage men, etc? There’s a long list of jobs where there’s practical reasons to start work when it gets light outside.
• deleted 5y ago
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• zemo 5y ago
  > I am not sure I know a single person whose morning wake-up time is dictated by the rise of the sun. people with dogs. Dogs don't care about clocks and they will totally wake you up so they can poop and have breakfast.
• bezospen15 5y ago
  Huh?? I always get up with the sun, even when I go to bed at 4am, I always wake up first thing. It's pretty annoying
• organsnyder 5y ago
  I'm a morning person (sometimes), and I love being up before the sun is up. I get a great sunrise view out of my front windows.
• MrYellowP 5y ago
  Probably a good part of these people is just being selfish. They completely ignore the increased suicide rates and other effects the switching of the clock has. It even affects the cows of farmers. It has negative side effects for millions of people, but NOOOOOO, those poor people who need to get up earlier, they'll be having a much harder time!
• epalm 5y ago
  > Everyone I know wakes up whatever time that their work tells them to. Or whatever time that their toddler(s) tell them to ;)