5 ms·

Permanent DST means it'll be off by an hour forever.

by ginko 5y ago

kompatible 5y ago
Time doesn't have an "off"-ness when it is solely the way people measure the time between sunrise and sunset. If the methods used to measure time is changed, it is changed, but not in the consequence of it being "wrong" forevermore.
stormbrew 5y ago
Unless you're extremely lucky (in the sense that you exist in a very particular line of place in each time zone), it is off by an arbitrary and varying amount for everyone everywhere all the time regardless of DST or not. Clock time is an abstract construction over imperfect measurements and compromises with practicality and it always has been. [edit to remove under-researched claim about some effects of shifting]
- ginko 5y ago
  The average difference from solar time would still be larger with DST. You can find a pretty good visualization here: http://blog.poormansmath.net/images/SolarTimeVsStandardTime.png http://blog.poormansmath.net/images/SolarTimeVsStandardTime.... This shows the difference between solar time and standard time. By switching to DST you essentially shift the gradient to the east by an hour. Other than Greenland I can't see a timezone where that wouldn't mean that the longitude at which the difference is 0 is outside of the actual timezone.
  - stormbrew 5y ago
    I took the part a lot of this reply was about out because it was probably wrong. Regardless, there's no purity to be had here. No matter what, time zones themselves are a compromise for the sake of practicality -- there's no inherent virtue in "the sun is at precisely peak at 12pm +/- a geographic offset."
  - saltcured 5y ago
    This is a good visualization and gives a qualitative awareness I lacked before. I didn't realize how many timezones in the world are severely "off center" and counter to my own experience. I've lived my whole life in areas that are "barely green" to "slightly pink" in this map. Oddly, most of my travel destinations have also had similar solar alignment, whether in North America, Europe, or Asia. The biggest deviation I have experienced is that of South Korea, which I didn't really notice as unusual during a short visit with jet lag. It is striking how many timezones are all red instead of being split red and green. In my childhood, people always talked about how different the evening/night culture was in Spain with meals at late hours. This map tells me the difference is less significant than I imagined as far as solar life, and more due to the time standard. While this topic is beat to death already, I remain torn. On the one hand, centering on solar time is the only logical criteria I can see for adjusting and revising standards. To revise it even further away seems illogical to me. But, the map clearly many cultures already have gone that route. I can imagine many of these deviations came from some legacy desire to synchronize with an adjacent center of power or commerce. I can also appreciate that if we set it far enough out of whack, it illuminates how any standard is inherently arbitrary.
    - ginko 5y ago
      >It is striking how many timezones are all red instead of being split red and green FWIW, I think that map is from the time when Russia tried permanent DST from 2011 to 2014[1]. They changed to permanent standard time after it proved unpopular. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29773559 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29773559
rdudek 5y ago
As opposed to 4 months of the year as it is currently?
- ginko 5y ago
  What do you mean? Arguably January 1st is off from the actual winter solstice by about 10 days, but that's not 4 months.
radicality 5y ago
What does ‘off by an hour’ even mean here? I don’t understand why this whole thing seems to be such a heated topic. Time on a clock is just a concept we all agree on. If we all agree “_now_ it’s 9am and we shall not change clocks from this point on”, then that’s that, _now_ is “9am”, there’s no “off by an hour”.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  It's about sun-time, which is how we naturally, I suppose, conceive of time. Midnight and noon, for example, won't be on the twelves.
  - squeaky-clean 5y ago
    Midnight and noon won't be on the twelves anyways except for one day out of the whole year no matter which system you choose.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      That seems a bit binary - i.e., as if it's perfect or it's meaningless. They would be much closer using Standard Time.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  Because the daycare you are sending your 5 year old to doesn't agree that time is just a concept.
  - xboxnolifes 5y ago
    Yes they do. They take you child at X:00, when the clock says X:00, they do not care if Earth is at 90 degrees rotation or 105 degrees rotation.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      > Time on a clock is just a concept we all agree on. If we all agree “_now_ it’s 9am and we shall not change clocks from this point on”, then that’s that, _now_ is “9am”, there’s no “off by an hour”. I guess we are arguing about whether we can all agree on what now should be.
InitialLastName 5y ago
Forget this, time zones always add a margin of untruth to our clock systems. Some people end up being a full hour off of nominal time (look at what time sunrise is in eastern Maine)! Let's go back to time calculated per-municipality. That way nobody will ever feel like their time is inaccurate again. \s.

Permanent DST means it'll be off by an hour forever.

by ginko 5y ago

Permanent DST means it'll be off by an hour forever.

Time doesn't have an "off"-ness when it is solely the way people measure the time between sunrise and sunset. If the methods used to measure time is changed, it is changed, but not in the consequence of it being "wrong" forevermore.

stormbrew 5y ago

Unless you're extremely lucky (in the sense that you exist in a very particular line of place in each time zone), it is off by an arbitrary and varying amount for everyone everywhere all the time regardless of DST or not. Clock time is an abstract construction over imperfect measurements and compromises with practicality and it always has been. [edit to remove under-researched claim about some effects of shifting]

ginko 5y ago
The average difference from solar time would still be larger with DST. You can find a pretty good visualization here: http://blog.poormansmath.net/images/SolarTimeVsStandardTime.png http://blog.poormansmath.net/images/SolarTimeVsStandardTime.... This shows the difference between solar time and standard time. By switching to DST you essentially shift the gradient to the east by an hour. Other than Greenland I can't see a timezone where that wouldn't mean that the longitude at which the difference is 0 is outside of the actual timezone.
- stormbrew 5y ago
  I took the part a lot of this reply was about out because it was probably wrong. Regardless, there's no purity to be had here. No matter what, time zones themselves are a compromise for the sake of practicality -- there's no inherent virtue in "the sun is at precisely peak at 12pm +/- a geographic offset."
- saltcured 5y ago
  This is a good visualization and gives a qualitative awareness I lacked before. I didn't realize how many timezones in the world are severely "off center" and counter to my own experience. I've lived my whole life in areas that are "barely green" to "slightly pink" in this map. Oddly, most of my travel destinations have also had similar solar alignment, whether in North America, Europe, or Asia. The biggest deviation I have experienced is that of South Korea, which I didn't really notice as unusual during a short visit with jet lag. It is striking how many timezones are all red instead of being split red and green. In my childhood, people always talked about how different the evening/night culture was in Spain with meals at late hours. This map tells me the difference is less significant than I imagined as far as solar life, and more due to the time standard. While this topic is beat to death already, I remain torn. On the one hand, centering on solar time is the only logical criteria I can see for adjusting and revising standards. To revise it even further away seems illogical to me. But, the map clearly many cultures already have gone that route. I can imagine many of these deviations came from some legacy desire to synchronize with an adjacent center of power or commerce. I can also appreciate that if we set it far enough out of whack, it illuminates how any standard is inherently arbitrary.
  - ginko 5y ago
    >It is striking how many timezones are all red instead of being split red and green FWIW, I think that map is from the time when Russia tried permanent DST from 2011 to 2014[1]. They changed to permanent standard time after it proved unpopular. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29773559 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29773559

rdudek 5y ago

As opposed to 4 months of the year as it is currently?

ginko 5y ago
What do you mean? Arguably January 1st is off from the actual winter solstice by about 10 days, but that's not 4 months.

radicality 5y ago

What does ‘off by an hour’ even mean here? I don’t understand why this whole thing seems to be such a heated topic. Time on a clock is just a concept we all agree on. If we all agree “_now_ it’s 9am and we shall not change clocks from this point on”, then that’s that, _now_ is “9am”, there’s no “off by an hour”.

wolverine876 5y ago
It's about sun-time, which is how we naturally, I suppose, conceive of time. Midnight and noon, for example, won't be on the twelves.
- squeaky-clean 5y ago
  Midnight and noon won't be on the twelves anyways except for one day out of the whole year no matter which system you choose.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    That seems a bit binary - i.e., as if it's perfect or it's meaningless. They would be much closer using Standard Time.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
Because the daycare you are sending your 5 year old to doesn't agree that time is just a concept.
- xboxnolifes 5y ago
  Yes they do. They take you child at X:00, when the clock says X:00, they do not care if Earth is at 90 degrees rotation or 105 degrees rotation.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    > Time on a clock is just a concept we all agree on. If we all agree “_now_ it’s 9am and we shall not change clocks from this point on”, then that’s that, _now_ is “9am”, there’s no “off by an hour”. I guess we are arguing about whether we can all agree on what now should be.

InitialLastName 5y ago

Forget this, time zones always add a margin of untruth to our clock systems. Some people end up being a full hour off of nominal time (look at what time sunrise is in eastern Maine)! Let's go back to time calculated per-municipality. That way nobody will ever feel like their time is inaccurate again. \s.