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I don’t get this at all. Why would people want the sun to go down in the afternoon? In my time zone it sets at 4:30 part of the year! That’s awful, and sunrise
by thehappypm 5y ago
I don’t get this at all. Why would people want the sun to go down in the afternoon? In my time zone it sets at 4:30 part of the year! That’s awful, and sunrise is at around 7:00am. We have way more sun in the morning.
- D13Fd 5y agoBecause it make zero sense for everyone to have to get up an hour earlier. And it makes no sense for kids to stand around in the dark at freezing cold bus stops every morning.
- LastMuel 5y agoBut, we do that anyway. Mid winter, even in the south part of the U.S. I was standing in the dark and cold waiting for a bus to arrive.
- sophacles 5y agoStop letting facts get in the way of a good "i dislike change" argument.
- gifnamething 5y agoThis isn't a constructive way of arguing, it's an irrefutable strawman
- D13Fd 5y agoThere is a big difference between doing it for a few weeks and doing it for most or all of the school year (depending on location and schedule).
- dham 5y agoSame here when I was in middle school. I never understood the standing for bus in the dark argument. I thought that was just normal.
- belltaco 5y agoChange school start timings in winter, then?
- D13Fd 5y agoWe'd have to change work timing too, then, to facilitate dropoffs and parents who want to watch their kids at the bus stops. And at that point, we are back where we started. Better to just not mess with the time, and stick with standard time.
- rattray 5y agoIt's probably easier to change work timings now than it ever would have been before. Which is great.
- jalk 5y agoChanging the start time for some activities twice a year seems likely to cause even more confusion that changing the clock
- Jtype 5y agoIf you change what time people go to work from 8 am to 9 am then you will also be changing when they get home from 5pm to 6pm. Then you have lost that extra daylight in the evening, which was the entire point of the time change!
- stickfigure 5y agoWhat percentage of the population must start work at exactly 8am?
- s1artibartfast 5y agoA pretty big chunk. I couldn't find the latest Census data, but in 2000 ~20% of people left for work before 630 and 72% left for work before 830 am. https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/decennial/2000/briefs/c2kbr-33.pdf https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/decennial/2000/...
- Broken_Hippo 5y ago"And it makes no sense for kids to stand around in the dark at freezing cold bus stops every morning." I mean, coats exist. We could make sure everyone has winter wear appropriate for the weather, and then it just won't be an issue. Kids here are out in it and are from a young age here (Norway).
- D13Fd 5y agoEasy to say from a low-crime, high-safety country like Norway.
- johannes1234321 5y agoThese damn socialists ...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- rattray 5y agoAlso a country where a high percentage of families can afford clothing of adequate quality.
- throwaway0a5e 5y agoWinter coats aren't so expensive that the people of Detroit are seriously lacking for them. Sure they can't all stand at the bus stop wearing some status symbol of a jacket but they do just fine.
- kube-system 5y agoWhen I was in school, there were absolutely kids who lacked basic necessities, including quality clothing. Clothing was also more expensive back then... but universal schooling means that we're also catering to the poorest of the poor.
- 0xbadcafebee 5y ago
- Tempest1981 5y agoThere is also a movement to start school later: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Start_school_later_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Start_school_later_movement For example, in California, starting this Fall, high school can't start before 8:30 AM.
- iso1210 5y agoI get the feeling that it's fairly common in US schools to have kids in before 8am, possibly even before 7am! Is this because of the widespread school transport and the need to stagger the bus usage? In the UK it's quite rare to have school transport, with most kids at high school taking public transport, and at primary school either walking or being driven I got the feeling from German textbooks at school that early starts were common in Europe too.
- nickff 5y agoEarly school hours are often a result of teachers' desires to get out of work early. Many teachers' unions include school hours in their bargaining/contracts.
- mschuster91 5y agoYeah, and that is because being a teacher is not just an incredibly mentally taxing job (made worse by the fact that class sizes are way too large) but also involves an awful lot of invisible after-school work: preparing and correcting exams, preparing class material, dealing with IEPs, following up with parents (particularly in financially or otherwise challenged families), organizing after-school and extra-curricular activities, dealing with other bureaucratic bullshit because the administration is understaffed...
- kube-system 5y agoYes, it is commonplace for bussing to be staggered -- they often pick up a route for one school (maybe a high school), then run another route for another school (maybe an elementary school).
- 5y ago
- deagle50 5y agoKids shouldn't be forced to start that early anyway. It's borderline child abuse imo. Maybe permanent DST will lead to school schedules that benefit children not adults.
- sigspec 5y agoYES! I work from 9-5. My kid is at school from 7:15 to 2:30. We're lucky my wife teaches so we don't have to worry about after school care.
- ilovesunlight 5y agoIt's actually the exact opposite. Permanent DST means that kids will be starting 1 hour earlier relative to sunrise, which is terrible for educational outcomes.
- pavon 5y agoSome people have a very difficult time waking up and driving to work before the sun rises.
- wittjeff 5y agoMorning vs Evening Light Treatment of Patients With Winter Depression "These results should help establish the importance of circadian (morning or evening) time of light exposure in the treatment of winter depression. We recommend that bright-light exposure be scheduled immediately on awakening in the treatment of most patients with seasonal affective disorder." https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/204323 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/...
- stickfigure 5y agoThose people can get up later? It really doesn't matter whether we're on daylight time or standard time, schedules will adjust to whatever makes sense for that particular locale. Just stop changing the damn clocks back and forth.
- xyhopguy 5y agothis proposal will set sunrise at 9am during december in Oregon and washington. 'Wake up later' doesnt really work for most people.
- stickfigure 5y agoHow is 8am so much better? If you start work at 8am, you need to be up 1-2 hours earlier to get ready, commute, etc. The only people who wake up with the sun in the winter are folks that roll into work at 10am.
- xyhopguy 5y agoCurrently we deal with >= 8am sunrise for 2 months of the year. With this proposal, you get it for November and February too. yay!
- davis_m 5y agoThe time most people wake up is dictated by when they need to be at work. They can't simply "get up later".
- ddlatham 5y agoBecause the hours of sunlight are limited, and many people prefer having the sun set in the afternoon over having it rise after the day's routine is well under way. Many people prefer it the other way around. There are some inconveniences both ways, but we'll make it work one way or the other.
- tshaddox 5y agoEvery poll I’ve seen shows yearly daylight saving time adjustments to be rather unpopular.
- ghaff 5y ago"adjustments" Even those of us who prefer DST in general don't like the change in general. (OK, I remember in college extending the party by one hour was pretty cool but the other end wasn't so great.)
- Talanes 5y ago>OK, I remember in college extending the party by one hour was pretty cool but the other end wasn't so great. The magic really goes away when you hit bar-going age and realize that even though the time-change lines up with last-call perfectly, they don't stay open an extra hour.
- throwaway0a5e 5y agoBecause they don't do anything after work and would rather commute in the daylight at 7am so the late sun is of no benefit but the early sun is. Tons of people already work 7-3 so they already deal with the downside in the morning. Not like night is gonna get any darker.
- eli 5y agoI don't particularly care whether the sun rises or sets +/- 1 hour. I do care about having my routine and sleep schedule disrupted.
- sampo 5y agoThere is a whole body of research, comparing the areas on both sides of time zone boundaries. The results unanimously show that living too far west of your time zone's center line, has negative effects on health and economy. In light of this research, permanent winter time would be good for health and economy. Permanent summer time will be worse. Linkdump: https://www.econ.pitt.edu/sites/default/files/WP%2017-009.upload.pdf https://www.econ.pitt.edu/sites/default/files/WP%2017-009.up... http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/cebp/26/8/1306.full.pdf http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/cebp/26/8/1306.full.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21231877 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21231877 https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29636342 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29636342 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276058441_The_incidence_of_winter_depression_varies_within_time_zone https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276058441_The_incid...
- seanmcdirmid 5y agoPermanent winter time would suck here, I like taking my kid to the playground after school, I can't do that in the winter because it is long dark by the time I pick him up. Who cares if the sun is up and bright at 6AM in the morning while I'm still sleeping. When I lived in Beijing, they are on standard time year round , and it was really horrible having the sun rise at 4AM in the morning during summer. Like really? How can that be healthy?
- sampo 5y ago> Who cares if the sun is up and bright at 6AM in the morning while I'm still sleeping. According to the research results, public health and economy would care.
- Apocryphon 5y agoPublic health also cares about not switching up schedules.
- 5y ago
- seanalltogether 5y agoDo you have kids? Do you have to wake those kids up for school in the dark and wrestle with your own ability to wake up in the dark? Have you been to school board meetings and listened to other parents who are extremely opinionated about every aspect of their children's schedules. The simple answer is that while lots of people "want" the sun in the evening, there is a sizable group of people that "need" the sun in the morning.
- Apocryphon 5y agoThey could also shift when school schedules start to later in the morning.
- seanalltogether 5y agoBut that shifts work schedules to later in the morning, which pushes lunch and dinner schedules, and bedtime schedules, and then you're right back where you started.
- Apocryphon 5y agoIt wouldn't shift meal or bedtime schedules.
- gifnamething 5y agoThen we lose the conceit that we're doing it for the kids' benefit.
- m463 5y agoI think that is the answer. Keep kids away from traffic during darkness and let them have a little more darkness in the evening when they're inside and safe.
- thehappypm 5y agoIf your desire is to make sure that kids have light on both ends of the school commute, then adjust your time zone such that winter is optimal. Then just keep that time zone year round. Why bother moving the clocks?
- tzs 5y ago> Why would people want the sun to go down in the afternoon? They don't. They want it to come up in the morning. In many places there isn't enough sunlight in the middle of winter to have it up both in the morning and the afternoon, so they need to pick one. From a safety point of view, probably sunlight in the morning in more useful because sunlight drives temperature. That means mornings tend to be colder than afternoons, and so are more likely to have hazards such as ice on the roads. When you go with dark mornings, you are combining the worst road conditions with the worst visibility. When you choose light mornings over light afternoons, then morning is combining the best visibility with the worst road conditions and afternoon is combining the best road conditions with the worst visibility. Another factor is that commutes tend to fall into a narrower time range in the mornings. The commutes back home after work tend to be more spread out. This tends to make the morning commute more dangerous, which further argues against placing the morning commute in darkness.
- Apocryphon 5y ago> When you go with dark mornings, you are combining the worst road conditions with the worst visibility. You're still passing the buck to commutes during dark evenings. Driving at night is always more dangerous: https://www.nsc.org/road-safety/safety-topics/night-driving https://www.nsc.org/road-safety/safety-topics/night-driving
- mechanicalpulse 5y agoI'd argue that evening darkness is somewhat safer than morning darkness when I'm considering winter weather. The temperature of the roads are higher after ten hours of daylight than they are after ten hours of darkness. The coldest and iciest conditions are often found right before dawn.
- jpindar 5y agoAlso, on average, people are in less of a hurry after work.
- Asooka 5y agoBecause we don't want to get up too early. If you want more sun, you're free to get up early yourself.