4 ms·

Homelessness is the biggest driver of remote, and a big reason why I haven't taken my family to San Fran or Seattle. Flying down there once a quarter is fine fo

by kache_ 5y ago

Homelessness is the biggest driver of remote, and a big reason why I haven't taken my family to San Fran or Seattle. Flying down there once a quarter is fine for me, an adult male. But there's no way I'm subjecting my children to that level of lack of safety.

renewiltord 5y ago
I grew up in a big city myself, but I have a second degree connection with people who grew up in the SF Tenderloin, and it looks like it did make them wary of people. I've also noticed that this is common for people who grew up in the bad parts of Oakland: they think everyone is going to scam them. Also, in my experience, people who grew up in the country are wary of people who don't look like them, and folks from diverse cities (like London) are very inclusive of people. So to me there's some sort of curve where both isolation and living in the worst part of cities leads to some sort of automatic trust loss. I want my children to be trusting (I expect them to be scammed some number of times and survive the experience) so it does make me consider where I want to live where they can experience independence, other children, and end up secure people.
pnathan 5y ago
I live about 1-2 miles from this specific location (this specific office building everyone's talking about), with my wife and kid. The hot spot is, about roughly, 9 blocks. The boundaries are slightly amorphous as seasons change. It is not the vast majority of Seattle by land area or population. There's a lot elsewhere to do and see in Seattle that doesn't involve this area. Most of the other troubled areas are considerably safer than this specific location. I live in another troubled area. I'm not thrilled about it, but it is an order of magnitude better than 3rd and Pike. Anyway, I'd suggest not being in fear of taking the family to Seattle.
- ertian 5y ago
  This is very true. But: "Hey, guys, we're going to Seattle! What would you like to see?" "Let's go to Pike Place, I've heard a lot about that!" "Ehh...okay, but we'll have to stick to the inside of the market. Don't wander out, it's not safe!" "We could go to Pioneer Square!" "Holy crap, no way! It's scary down there." "The art museum...?" "Maybe, first thing in the morning, before things start getting...weird..." "We could, er, have lunch in the historic International District?" "Uhm...you're comfortable wielding a knife, right?" "What about, uhh...the arboretum?" "The arboretum! What a great idea! We'll go to the Arboretum. See, I told you Seattle is a great place to visit." Point being: about 90% of the stuff tourists come to see in Seattle is within that hot spot. And it is bigger than 9 square blocks, though it's still only a small part of the city, much less the municipal area.
  - RobertMiller 5y ago
    This is painfully true. Half a year ago my family was discussing plans for Christmas and they offered to come visit me in Seattle. My shocked response was "...why the fuck would you want to do that?!", to which they sheepishly admitted they thought it was a bad idea too but thought it would be nice to offer. We ended up renting a nice lake house near Huntsville instead.
  - lenocinor 5y ago
    I live in downtown Seattle. I go to the ID all the time and have never once felt unsafe. Pike Place Market and the Space Needle are the same way and honestly that’s where the tourists usually want to go despite me telling them to go to the Columbia Center for a better view (which is also generally safe). The previous comment is very misleading. I walk around this area all the time. It really mostly is 3rd between Stewart and Pike. I’ve been mostly avoiding that area for some time now. Everything else is normal big city stuff. PS: My girlfriend is from NYC and she’s amused about most of the stuff people freak out about here. I wonder if maybe people aren’t used to big city stuff here.
allmodelsRwrong 5y ago
This is pretty random and I realize your concern is safety for your family and the following point will do nothing to address that. I just wanted to say, when I was a kid I saw a lot of homelessness and I think it helped foster some sense of humanity. One thing I still think about from time to time. I saw a kid, around the same age as me at the time, with no hands begging for money. I distinctly remember this feeling of "that could very easily be me, just a few variables different". I guess the reason I'm saying this is as a parent, I don't wont to hide this from my kid. And this is not to say that I think your comment was to hide this from your kids. This is just what I thought about after reading it. It just gave me a lot to think about and I am not sure of a way to safely do this but I think its important. This is the system we actively participate in and endorse in one way or another. I don't want my kid to look away at the ugly parts.
- kache_ 5y ago
  I grew up near San Francisco and saw a lot of homelessness as well. You're right. Some degree of exposure helps kids build a realistic world view and how expansive the variety of human experience can be.
blintz 5y ago
San Francisco has a lower violent crime rate than Houston, Dallas, Washington D.C., and Miami. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b... Is it possible that these other cities also have violence, but it is just happening out of sight, creating a general feeling of ‘this is a safe city’ for visitors?
- Zenbit_UX 5y ago
  The distinction could be down to the difference between poor and dangerous. Sometimes it's subtle. If you grew up in a poor neighborhood you can fairly accurately evaluate if someone is dangerous or just poor. If you grew up in middle class suburbia it all appears very dangerous. San Francisco has a lot of poor people, i.e. homeless, and a lot of which have either mental health issues or substance abuse issues. That doesn't necessarily make them dangerous, but the more people like that you see on your walk to work, the more it can contribute to someone's general feelings of being unsafe. Vancouvers East Hastings and LAs public transit system (Blue line at night) are both examples of poor people who are (mostly) not dangerous. You could navigate these areas with very little chance of being assaulted but I doubt many would opt for such a route if given other options. There are areas though which are both poor and dangerous, certain parts of Detroit comes to mind
- rococode 5y ago
  From my experience, people in Seattle tend not to report minor crimes because the police have no ability to do anything about it. If a homeless person pushes you or spits at you, what are you realistically going to do? Call the police, wait 15-30 minutes for them to show up, and hope they can find a guy who's long gone? And even when they do bother to catch the person, the prosecutors in Seattle have a track record of dropping misdemeanor cases. It just seems like a waste of time, so you end up writing it off as an unlucky experience and moving on with your day. Other cities may be more violent on paper, but perhaps that's because they have smaller homeless populations and their crimes are perpetrated by people who can be reliably located and prosecuted.
  - sitkack 5y ago

by kache_ 5y ago

renewiltord 5y ago

I grew up in a big city myself, but I have a second degree connection with people who grew up in the SF Tenderloin, and it looks like it did make them wary of people. I've also noticed that this is common for people who grew up in the bad parts of Oakland: they think everyone is going to scam them. Also, in my experience, people who grew up in the country are wary of people who don't look like them, and folks from diverse cities (like London) are very inclusive of people. So to me there's some sort of curve where both isolation and living in the worst part of cities leads to some sort of automatic trust loss. I want my children to be trusting (I expect them to be scammed some number of times and survive the experience) so it does make me consider where I want to live where they can experience independence, other children, and end up secure people.

pnathan 5y ago

I live about 1-2 miles from this specific location (this specific office building everyone's talking about), with my wife and kid. The hot spot is, about roughly, 9 blocks. The boundaries are slightly amorphous as seasons change. It is not the vast majority of Seattle by land area or population. There's a lot elsewhere to do and see in Seattle that doesn't involve this area. Most of the other troubled areas are considerably safer than this specific location. I live in another troubled area. I'm not thrilled about it, but it is an order of magnitude better than 3rd and Pike. Anyway, I'd suggest not being in fear of taking the family to Seattle.

ertian 5y ago
This is very true. But: "Hey, guys, we're going to Seattle! What would you like to see?" "Let's go to Pike Place, I've heard a lot about that!" "Ehh...okay, but we'll have to stick to the inside of the market. Don't wander out, it's not safe!" "We could go to Pioneer Square!" "Holy crap, no way! It's scary down there." "The art museum...?" "Maybe, first thing in the morning, before things start getting...weird..." "We could, er, have lunch in the historic International District?" "Uhm...you're comfortable wielding a knife, right?" "What about, uhh...the arboretum?" "The arboretum! What a great idea! We'll go to the Arboretum. See, I told you Seattle is a great place to visit." Point being: about 90% of the stuff tourists come to see in Seattle is within that hot spot. And it is bigger than 9 square blocks, though it's still only a small part of the city, much less the municipal area.
- RobertMiller 5y ago
  This is painfully true. Half a year ago my family was discussing plans for Christmas and they offered to come visit me in Seattle. My shocked response was "...why the fuck would you want to do that?!", to which they sheepishly admitted they thought it was a bad idea too but thought it would be nice to offer. We ended up renting a nice lake house near Huntsville instead.
- lenocinor 5y ago
  I live in downtown Seattle. I go to the ID all the time and have never once felt unsafe. Pike Place Market and the Space Needle are the same way and honestly that’s where the tourists usually want to go despite me telling them to go to the Columbia Center for a better view (which is also generally safe). The previous comment is very misleading. I walk around this area all the time. It really mostly is 3rd between Stewart and Pike. I’ve been mostly avoiding that area for some time now. Everything else is normal big city stuff. PS: My girlfriend is from NYC and she’s amused about most of the stuff people freak out about here. I wonder if maybe people aren’t used to big city stuff here.

allmodelsRwrong 5y ago

This is pretty random and I realize your concern is safety for your family and the following point will do nothing to address that. I just wanted to say, when I was a kid I saw a lot of homelessness and I think it helped foster some sense of humanity. One thing I still think about from time to time. I saw a kid, around the same age as me at the time, with no hands begging for money. I distinctly remember this feeling of "that could very easily be me, just a few variables different". I guess the reason I'm saying this is as a parent, I don't wont to hide this from my kid. And this is not to say that I think your comment was to hide this from your kids. This is just what I thought about after reading it. It just gave me a lot to think about and I am not sure of a way to safely do this but I think its important. This is the system we actively participate in and endorse in one way or another. I don't want my kid to look away at the ugly parts.

kache_ 5y ago
I grew up near San Francisco and saw a lot of homelessness as well. You're right. Some degree of exposure helps kids build a realistic world view and how expansive the variety of human experience can be.

blintz 5y ago

San Francisco has a lower violent crime rate than Houston, Dallas, Washington D.C., and Miami. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b... Is it possible that these other cities also have violence, but it is just happening out of sight, creating a general feeling of ‘this is a safe city’ for visitors?

Zenbit_UX 5y ago
The distinction could be down to the difference between poor and dangerous. Sometimes it's subtle. If you grew up in a poor neighborhood you can fairly accurately evaluate if someone is dangerous or just poor. If you grew up in middle class suburbia it all appears very dangerous. San Francisco has a lot of poor people, i.e. homeless, and a lot of which have either mental health issues or substance abuse issues. That doesn't necessarily make them dangerous, but the more people like that you see on your walk to work, the more it can contribute to someone's general feelings of being unsafe. Vancouvers East Hastings and LAs public transit system (Blue line at night) are both examples of poor people who are (mostly) not dangerous. You could navigate these areas with very little chance of being assaulted but I doubt many would opt for such a route if given other options. There are areas though which are both poor and dangerous, certain parts of Detroit comes to mind
rococode 5y ago
From my experience, people in Seattle tend not to report minor crimes because the police have no ability to do anything about it. If a homeless person pushes you or spits at you, what are you realistically going to do? Call the police, wait 15-30 minutes for them to show up, and hope they can find a guy who's long gone? And even when they do bother to catch the person, the prosecutors in Seattle have a track record of dropping misdemeanor cases. It just seems like a waste of time, so you end up writing it off as an unlucky experience and moving on with your day. Other cities may be more violent on paper, but perhaps that's because they have smaller homeless populations and their crimes are perpetrated by people who can be reliably located and prosecuted.
- sitkack 5y ago