6 ms·

Sending someone to jail is a surefire way to turn them into a more serious threat when they're released. You could just give the money you'd spend incarcerating

Sending someone to jail is a surefire way to turn them into a more serious threat when they're released. You could just give the money you'd spend incarcerating them directly to the person or via food stamps, access to education, etc.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago
At some point, compassion has failed and incarceration is the only solution. You are simply claiming that compassion with additional resources can still have a positive effect on Andre. Maybe that's the case. But whenever I wait for the bus at 3rd and Pine (we did on Saturday), I don't see much hope like you do.
- angst_ridden 5y ago
  Right. Incarceration is the only possible solution. Which is why the US has the highest percentage of incarcerated population of any "civilized" nation in the world and zero crime.
- mbesto 5y ago
  > compassion has failed and incarceration is the only solution. That's because the problems are much more systematic and large parts of the population approach the solution with monkey patching. So of course you'd think we've run out of solutions.
- staticassertion 5y ago
  Sure, at some point. A guy who's just flipping stolen goods going to prison though is just totally stupid. You'll accomplish the opposite of your goals - you will increase crime with that sort of policy. And it'll cost you more. edit: To elaborate, the "at some point" is like... where a person has to be removed from society because they're an imminent danger to themselves or others.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    That guy isn't just flipping stolen goods, he is providing an outlet for a bunch of people to go through the downtown Target and clear it out, those people often get into altercations with people who work at that Target and even customers like me. Oh, "did my kid look at that homeless guy (actively stealing Legos in the toy section) wrong?" is not something most parents want to deal with. We'd like our city back please.
    - staticassertion 5y ago
      You're not really saying much. I also don't want someone to steal legos, that isn't a controversial statement.
      - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        People that fence goods are the reason shoplifting is viable. I think that is obvious, and why it shouldn't be allowed (and should be prosecuted).
- monksy 5y ago
  Want to go into the experience that is the near by Target?
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    Ha ha! We still go there because my kid likes the toy section. It has gotten better since the current crackdown has taken place, it doesn't feel like a dystopian retail establishment anymore.
- danShumway 5y ago
  > is the only solution But is it a solution? If Andre gets out of prison and goes back to stealing, then that process may well have wasted more money than many social programs for the exact same outcome. Imprisoning people is really expensive. If Andre never gets out of prison at all, then we're committing to indefinitely spending a ton of money on him for the rest of his life, which also is not an amazing outcome. And that's only a theoretical possibility anyway, selling stolen goods (even habitually) is probably not going to get you a life-sentence in prison. I think people have this perspective on incarceration that it's the final catch-all solution, and the reason we avoid it is purely compassion. And compassion is part of it, sure, but also if prison sentences don't reduce recidivism, then they're not a working solution. You should look at prison recidivism rates and apply the same level of skepticism and hold prison spending to the same standards that you apply to social programs and public housing. You should have the same expectations for both public housing and for what is essentially a much more expensive form of "coerced housing". Asking how far we should go to reform someone before we give up and incarcerate is kind of begging the question -- it assumes that incarceration is always solution that just blanketly works and the only reason we avoid it is out of compassion and morality. In reality, incarceration is just another tool in the toolbox, and sometimes it might solve a problem, and sometimes it won't -- sometimes it's a complete waste of time and money.
  - staticassertion 5y ago
    Completely agree. I'm not sure how people are so short sighted as to think prison is a "solution" - prison sentences are temporary. Also, you used "begging the question" properly! I'm weirdly refreshed by that having just seen it misused in another comment.
    - koolba 5y ago
      We as a society accepting the high costs of long term incarceration is an answer. It might not be a pleasant answer, or even an answer that everyone accepts. But we don't make that decision individually, we do it as a whole of society. I'd bet the percentage of people that would rather pay to imprison people, rather than deal with the treatment / relapse loop is at least 25%. Likely even higher if you take it as a percentage of the gainfully employed.
- long_time_gone 5y ago
  > At some point, compassion has failed and incarceration is the only solution. The US has a higher incarceration rate than other developed countries, while also maintaining higher crime/violence rates. It doesn't seem to be a good solution to the crime problem. Does Andre get out of prison? What then? It may be more accurate to say, "At some point incarceration has failed and compassion is the only solution."
  - tomschlick 5y ago
    > Does Andre get out of prison? What then? He either accepts the help again (housing, food, job, education, etc) and actually makes something of himself, or he commits more crimes and goes back to prison. Seems like a fairly straightforward deal to me.
    - long_time_gone 5y ago
      So, the current system? The same strategy that's gotten us the high incarceration and crimes rates we have today doesn't seem like a solution to anything. Seems like a straightforward way to changing nothing.
      - tomschlick 5y ago
        The part that is missing is the personal responsibility. If the guy doesnt change his direction with all the help thats available to him thats his own fault, not the system's.
        long_time_gone 5y ago
        >The part that is missing is the personal responsibility. Where is that missing? It is there today. The fact is that society bears the financial burden of someone spending a life in prison (and also the emotional/financial/physical burden of the person's actual crimes). You seem to be dismissing that to make an ideological stance.
humanwhosits 5y ago
Maybe we need a different sort of jail, one where things are kinda nice
newaccount2021 5y ago

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

At some point, compassion has failed and incarceration is the only solution. You are simply claiming that compassion with additional resources can still have a positive effect on Andre. Maybe that's the case. But whenever I wait for the bus at 3rd and Pine (we did on Saturday), I don't see much hope like you do.

angst_ridden 5y ago
Right. Incarceration is the only possible solution. Which is why the US has the highest percentage of incarcerated population of any "civilized" nation in the world and zero crime.
mbesto 5y ago
> compassion has failed and incarceration is the only solution. That's because the problems are much more systematic and large parts of the population approach the solution with monkey patching. So of course you'd think we've run out of solutions.
staticassertion 5y ago
Sure, at some point. A guy who's just flipping stolen goods going to prison though is just totally stupid. You'll accomplish the opposite of your goals - you will increase crime with that sort of policy. And it'll cost you more. edit: To elaborate, the "at some point" is like... where a person has to be removed from society because they're an imminent danger to themselves or others.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  That guy isn't just flipping stolen goods, he is providing an outlet for a bunch of people to go through the downtown Target and clear it out, those people often get into altercations with people who work at that Target and even customers like me. Oh, "did my kid look at that homeless guy (actively stealing Legos in the toy section) wrong?" is not something most parents want to deal with. We'd like our city back please.
  - staticassertion 5y ago
    You're not really saying much. I also don't want someone to steal legos, that isn't a controversial statement.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      People that fence goods are the reason shoplifting is viable. I think that is obvious, and why it shouldn't be allowed (and should be prosecuted).
monksy 5y ago
Want to go into the experience that is the near by Target?
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  Ha ha! We still go there because my kid likes the toy section. It has gotten better since the current crackdown has taken place, it doesn't feel like a dystopian retail establishment anymore.
danShumway 5y ago
> is the only solution But is it a solution? If Andre gets out of prison and goes back to stealing, then that process may well have wasted more money than many social programs for the exact same outcome. Imprisoning people is really expensive. If Andre never gets out of prison at all, then we're committing to indefinitely spending a ton of money on him for the rest of his life, which also is not an amazing outcome. And that's only a theoretical possibility anyway, selling stolen goods (even habitually) is probably not going to get you a life-sentence in prison. I think people have this perspective on incarceration that it's the final catch-all solution, and the reason we avoid it is purely compassion. And compassion is part of it, sure, but also if prison sentences don't reduce recidivism, then they're not a working solution. You should look at prison recidivism rates and apply the same level of skepticism and hold prison spending to the same standards that you apply to social programs and public housing. You should have the same expectations for both public housing and for what is essentially a much more expensive form of "coerced housing". Asking how far we should go to reform someone before we give up and incarcerate is kind of begging the question -- it assumes that incarceration is always solution that just blanketly works and the only reason we avoid it is out of compassion and morality. In reality, incarceration is just another tool in the toolbox, and sometimes it might solve a problem, and sometimes it won't -- sometimes it's a complete waste of time and money.
- staticassertion 5y ago
  Completely agree. I'm not sure how people are so short sighted as to think prison is a "solution" - prison sentences are temporary. Also, you used "begging the question" properly! I'm weirdly refreshed by that having just seen it misused in another comment.
  - koolba 5y ago
    We as a society accepting the high costs of long term incarceration is an answer. It might not be a pleasant answer, or even an answer that everyone accepts. But we don't make that decision individually, we do it as a whole of society. I'd bet the percentage of people that would rather pay to imprison people, rather than deal with the treatment / relapse loop is at least 25%. Likely even higher if you take it as a percentage of the gainfully employed.
long_time_gone 5y ago
> At some point, compassion has failed and incarceration is the only solution. The US has a higher incarceration rate than other developed countries, while also maintaining higher crime/violence rates. It doesn't seem to be a good solution to the crime problem. Does Andre get out of prison? What then? It may be more accurate to say, "At some point incarceration has failed and compassion is the only solution."
- tomschlick 5y ago
  > Does Andre get out of prison? What then? He either accepts the help again (housing, food, job, education, etc) and actually makes something of himself, or he commits more crimes and goes back to prison. Seems like a fairly straightforward deal to me.
  - long_time_gone 5y ago
    So, the current system? The same strategy that's gotten us the high incarceration and crimes rates we have today doesn't seem like a solution to anything. Seems like a straightforward way to changing nothing.
    - tomschlick 5y ago
      The part that is missing is the personal responsibility. If the guy doesnt change his direction with all the help thats available to him thats his own fault, not the system's.
      - long_time_gone 5y ago
        >The part that is missing is the personal responsibility. Where is that missing? It is there today. The fact is that society bears the financial burden of someone spending a life in prison (and also the emotional/financial/physical burden of the person's actual crimes). You seem to be dismissing that to make an ideological stance.

humanwhosits 5y ago

Maybe we need a different sort of jail, one where things are kinda nice

newaccount2021 5y ago