3 ms·

Its their choice. You can do 10 solo toy scenes, or one where some repulsive dude puts a toilet seat on your neck and pisses straight into your mouth. Why blame

by rasz 5y ago

Its their choice. You can do 10 solo toy scenes, or one where some repulsive dude puts a toilet seat on your neck and pisses straight into your mouth. Why blame third parties for your own consensual life choices?

AussieWog93 5y ago
>Why blame third parties for your own consensual life choices? Because certain people (homeless, mentally ill, dealing with substance abuse) will agree to degrading treatment that no regular person would accept. Taking advantage of someone in these sorts of situations is predatory.
- Workaccount2 5y ago
  Its an avenue for people who consistently make bad decisions to monetize that trait. Brutal take, but I would argue it's just as valid as the opposite take: "People who helplessly fell through the cracks become victims of those preying on the weak" In reality its a mix of both and would come down to arguing over which is more prevelant.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  And the porn industry seems designed to wash guilt. The directors just make films. The sites just host content. The viewers just watch content. But in aggregate, this system creates a huge financial incentive to exploit anyone you can. I'm all for regulation, if done in a non-puritanical, individual freedom-promoting way. People should be able to choose to be involved in producing porn. No one should feel forced into producing porn. If we, as a society, aren't willing to ban porn (and I don't think we should), then we have a moral obligation to prevent workplace exploitation in its production via regulation, investigation, and social support resources.
  - api 5y ago
    Maybe the solution is to pursue a society where people are not so unequal that they feel tempted to degrade themselves for money? Maybe we should have minimum income to at least a level where everyone is capable of meeting basic needs, basically "fuck you money" for everyone. IMHO doing obviously unethical work for money is also degrading and is much more common than porn. It's one thing if someone wants the money and doesn't care, but there are millions of people around the world in e.g. scam call centers that do this kind of work to stay out of the worst of the slums.
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      I caught the pre-edit phrasing and agreed with it too. ;) But agreed that the greater good would be looking at the structural facts that force people into unethical work and addressing those.
    - ptsneves 5y ago
      I know you propose it with a maybe and i do not mean to attack you. That said, it is so simplistic to think people only do degrading things because they need money, that if they had money it would not happen. I think we are so more gray than that. "fuck you money" is undefined. I am pretty sure that there are people that do not care about the amount, they care how they are compared to their peers. Just for these people, arguably most people, your solution already fails. The other simplification is the assertion that degradation is a universal concept and that the threshold is the same. This is extremely difficult to define and i am pretty sure a catholic priest's definition of degradation starts at anything else than marital sex. We can define something more liberal but then we need to take the great step of saying what is acceptable regarding one's sexuality. Seems to me most liberal societies decide to bail that discussion, just deciding that if you did it without coercion it is fine. I also find that position objectionable by the way, as there are work contracts which are by definition illegal(eg, a contract for work of more than 40 hours per week), and i do not see why we could not go further. All and all, maybe giving these people social security, requirements for mental and physical tests, a subsidy for change of employment, could help lower the chance of unfair and dysfunctional societies. At the same time if someone wants to do, distribute or consume this stuff, then we get the benefit that the chain is legitimate. I think that is really worth it. Sex workers do really important social work.
    - NoGravitas 5y ago
      Absolutely. The problem with sex work isn't that it's sex, but that it's work.
      - hnbad 5y ago
        It's both. All wage labor is exploitative. But that doesn't mean all wage labor is equally abusive. Even without the cultural biases against sex work, there's a tangible difference in the vulnerability of selling intimacy.
- hermannj314 5y ago
  That observation has nothing to do with the porn industry. The agricultural and meat processing industries have been aware of this for centuries.
newaccount74 5y ago
People often to go back to their abusers, even though it means getting abused again. That doesn't mean it's okay to abuse them.
idontknowifican 5y ago
no one is telling you you can’t get off to it, you just don’t get to act like it’s ok anymore. we both understand that there are factors outside of money when exchanging it for services. these women are offered things they can’t turn down due to other issues. no need to dance around it, just add lack of consent to your kinks and the porn is even better
- rasz 5y ago
  Nice personal attack. >can’t turn down due to other issues Like what? The difference between soft and hardcore stuff is probably ~10x the payout at the extreme end. So instead of one $3-5K scene and lets go shopping you now have to work every 2-4 days.
  - idontknowifican 5y ago
    how’s it a personal attack? the scene is legal, the exchange is known to both parties, it’s completely between two consenting adults, don’t kink shame. so the term i’m dancing around is intersectionality. the opportunities afforded to these folks present them with artificially constrained options, and that constraint is the true issue here, not the porn. do not misrepresent my argument because you assumed i was being an ass, i’m just trying to call it as it is and for us to acknowledge it not change it lol
- rowanG077 5y ago
  > these women are offered things they can’t turn down due to other issues. Yes that's generally how jobs work. You need to take them to make money to survive. Porn is not special in this case.
  - hnbad 5y ago
    I used to think this way too and the attitude is still widespread even on the left, but porn is special because sex work is tangibly different. You may argue that the difference is entirely cultural and if our culture were different, sex work would stop being special, but with things being as they are, there's no place on Earth where sex work isn't different from other forms of work. Heck, just looking at it without considering the actual sex acts and sexual nature of the work, porn is mixing a lot of extremes from other fields of work (emotional labor, selling your physical likeness, intense physical labor, etc) while often involving extremely toxic work environments and abusive business practices. It's "easy money" in terms of money received as a function of time spent, but it's not at all an easy line of work even if you ignore all the social and cultural aspects of it (e.g. risk of losing your home, losing custody, being disowned by your family, difficulty finding romantic partners, risk of being physically, emotionally and sexually abused by people outside work, etc).

by rasz 5y ago

AussieWog93 5y ago

>Why blame third parties for your own consensual life choices? Because certain people (homeless, mentally ill, dealing with substance abuse) will agree to degrading treatment that no regular person would accept. Taking advantage of someone in these sorts of situations is predatory.

Workaccount2 5y ago
Its an avenue for people who consistently make bad decisions to monetize that trait. Brutal take, but I would argue it's just as valid as the opposite take: "People who helplessly fell through the cracks become victims of those preying on the weak" In reality its a mix of both and would come down to arguing over which is more prevelant.
ethbr0 5y ago
And the porn industry seems designed to wash guilt. The directors just make films. The sites just host content. The viewers just watch content. But in aggregate, this system creates a huge financial incentive to exploit anyone you can. I'm all for regulation, if done in a non-puritanical, individual freedom-promoting way. People should be able to choose to be involved in producing porn. No one should feel forced into producing porn. If we, as a society, aren't willing to ban porn (and I don't think we should), then we have a moral obligation to prevent workplace exploitation in its production via regulation, investigation, and social support resources.
- api 5y ago
  Maybe the solution is to pursue a society where people are not so unequal that they feel tempted to degrade themselves for money? Maybe we should have minimum income to at least a level where everyone is capable of meeting basic needs, basically "fuck you money" for everyone. IMHO doing obviously unethical work for money is also degrading and is much more common than porn. It's one thing if someone wants the money and doesn't care, but there are millions of people around the world in e.g. scam call centers that do this kind of work to stay out of the worst of the slums.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    I caught the pre-edit phrasing and agreed with it too. ;) But agreed that the greater good would be looking at the structural facts that force people into unethical work and addressing those.
  - ptsneves 5y ago
    I know you propose it with a maybe and i do not mean to attack you. That said, it is so simplistic to think people only do degrading things because they need money, that if they had money it would not happen. I think we are so more gray than that. "fuck you money" is undefined. I am pretty sure that there are people that do not care about the amount, they care how they are compared to their peers. Just for these people, arguably most people, your solution already fails. The other simplification is the assertion that degradation is a universal concept and that the threshold is the same. This is extremely difficult to define and i am pretty sure a catholic priest's definition of degradation starts at anything else than marital sex. We can define something more liberal but then we need to take the great step of saying what is acceptable regarding one's sexuality. Seems to me most liberal societies decide to bail that discussion, just deciding that if you did it without coercion it is fine. I also find that position objectionable by the way, as there are work contracts which are by definition illegal(eg, a contract for work of more than 40 hours per week), and i do not see why we could not go further. All and all, maybe giving these people social security, requirements for mental and physical tests, a subsidy for change of employment, could help lower the chance of unfair and dysfunctional societies. At the same time if someone wants to do, distribute or consume this stuff, then we get the benefit that the chain is legitimate. I think that is really worth it. Sex workers do really important social work.
  - NoGravitas 5y ago
    Absolutely. The problem with sex work isn't that it's sex, but that it's work.
    - hnbad 5y ago
      It's both. All wage labor is exploitative. But that doesn't mean all wage labor is equally abusive. Even without the cultural biases against sex work, there's a tangible difference in the vulnerability of selling intimacy.
hermannj314 5y ago
That observation has nothing to do with the porn industry. The agricultural and meat processing industries have been aware of this for centuries.

newaccount74 5y ago

People often to go back to their abusers, even though it means getting abused again. That doesn't mean it's okay to abuse them.

idontknowifican 5y ago

no one is telling you you can’t get off to it, you just don’t get to act like it’s ok anymore. we both understand that there are factors outside of money when exchanging it for services. these women are offered things they can’t turn down due to other issues. no need to dance around it, just add lack of consent to your kinks and the porn is even better

rasz 5y ago
Nice personal attack. >can’t turn down due to other issues Like what? The difference between soft and hardcore stuff is probably ~10x the payout at the extreme end. So instead of one $3-5K scene and lets go shopping you now have to work every 2-4 days.
- idontknowifican 5y ago
  how’s it a personal attack? the scene is legal, the exchange is known to both parties, it’s completely between two consenting adults, don’t kink shame. so the term i’m dancing around is intersectionality. the opportunities afforded to these folks present them with artificially constrained options, and that constraint is the true issue here, not the porn. do not misrepresent my argument because you assumed i was being an ass, i’m just trying to call it as it is and for us to acknowledge it not change it lol
rowanG077 5y ago
> these women are offered things they can’t turn down due to other issues. Yes that's generally how jobs work. You need to take them to make money to survive. Porn is not special in this case.
- hnbad 5y ago
  I used to think this way too and the attitude is still widespread even on the left, but porn is special because sex work is tangibly different. You may argue that the difference is entirely cultural and if our culture were different, sex work would stop being special, but with things being as they are, there's no place on Earth where sex work isn't different from other forms of work. Heck, just looking at it without considering the actual sex acts and sexual nature of the work, porn is mixing a lot of extremes from other fields of work (emotional labor, selling your physical likeness, intense physical labor, etc) while often involving extremely toxic work environments and abusive business practices. It's "easy money" in terms of money received as a function of time spent, but it's not at all an easy line of work even if you ignore all the social and cultural aspects of it (e.g. risk of losing your home, losing custody, being disowned by your family, difficulty finding romantic partners, risk of being physically, emotionally and sexually abused by people outside work, etc).