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Putting aside the confiscation question, it’s morally obtuse to liken Iraqi civilian deaths, the top cause of which per that link was execution after capture by

Putting aside the confiscation question, it’s morally obtuse to liken Iraqi civilian deaths, the top cause of which per that link was execution after capture by insurgent & other non-US-aligned forces, with Ukrainian deaths from indiscriminate Russian shelling of civilian neighborhoods.

zakki 5y ago
- nojito 5y ago
  No it most definitely doesn’t make them combatants.
  - zakki 5y ago
_3u10 5y ago
- midasz 5y ago
  More precise targeting??? With cluster bombs???
  - _3u10 5y ago
- ithkuil 5y ago
  that's some serious level of victim blaming.
  - _3u10 5y ago
someotherperson 5y ago
"Morallly obtuse" as if that wasn't what the US was doing[0]. I guess the Red Cross centre my cousin worked in was a legitimate military target when it was hit with a US airstrike :) Perhaps if anyone asks the Russians they can just say it was worth it[1]. Let's stop with pretending that the reason why Ukrainian deaths are different is for any other reason than because they're pale skilled Europeans with blue eyes and blonde hair. Most major media have already admitted it, governments have already applauded it in parliament, it's probably about time that HN stops pretending it's about other reasons too. [0] https://www.military.com/video/operations-and-strategy/iraqi-war/contractors-gone-wild-in-iraq/1550587692001 https://www.military.com/video/operations-and-strategy/iraqi... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iFYaeoE3n4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iFYaeoE3n4
- jltsiren 5y ago
  The real reason why the reactions are different this time is West Europe, not Ukraine. They are fueled more by pragmatic self-interest than by moral concerns. For a long time, West Europe sought good relations with Russia and benefited from trade. That changed when Putin attacked Ukraine. The war hit too close to home, and West European countries could no longer trust Putin's intentions. The primary reaction was a sudden increase in military spending. As a secondary reaction, West Europe gave ok to stronger sanctions that were already supported by East Europe and the US.
- stef25 5y ago
  Humans seem to have some kind of radius around their emotional center. Personally I'm not ashamed to admit my emotional responses get weaker in response to events that spread outward from my kids, immediate family, my own town, my own country etc ... you get the idea. A bomb going off in Syria doesn't shake me as much as a bomb going off in my home town and that's not a hypothetical example. I'm sure people in Nigeria don't lose much sleep over a bomb going off in Brussels airport. Does that make them racist? What's happening in Ukraine is a completely unprovoked attack by a nuclear power led by a madman who seems to have lost all grip on reality. The potential for escalation in to something nobody ever imagined possible is very real. Lastly, there's also such a thing as "intent". Cynical responses will surely follow but I'm convinced that while the US made many colossal mistakes in the Middle East they never came close to having malicious drive that Russia is showing now.
mandmandam 5y ago
I seem to recall the US' indiscriminate shelling of Iraqi civilian neighborhoods broadcast with patriotic pomp and pride on the news not all that long ago. I even saw some brown people getting murdered by US forces on TV in my local McDonalds at 4 in the day one time.
DoItToMe81 5y ago
The US funded and trained state death squads in Iraq, which engaged in anti-Sunni sectarian violence. We know from leaks that this violence was broadly tolerated, and even encouraged. There are cases of suspected insurgents being handed over to them to be disappeared. The blood is just as much on the hands of the US government as Ukraine's is on the Russian government. By the Iraq War Bodycount's dataset, the civilian kill count of US forces alone, without including the Iraqi government forces, almost matches that of the sectarian terrorists who explicitly sought out to kill civilians. From occupation to leaving in 2011, it is only about 20% less. That is plainly unacceptable and criminal in any context. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/oct/25/iraq-torture-no-secret https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/oct/25/iraq-t... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/24/iraq-war-logs-us-iraqi-torture https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/24/iraq-war-logs-... https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2010-03-10/obama-administration-handed-over-detainees-despite-reports-of-torture https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2010-03-10/oba... https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2011-05-23/us-troops-ordered-not-to-investigate-iraqi-torture https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2011-05-23/us-... https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/iraqs-new-death-squad/ https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/iraqs-new-death-sq... https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/ https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

zakki 5y ago

nojito 5y ago
No it most definitely doesn’t make them combatants.
- zakki 5y ago

_3u10 5y ago

midasz 5y ago
More precise targeting??? With cluster bombs???
- _3u10 5y ago
ithkuil 5y ago
that's some serious level of victim blaming.
- _3u10 5y ago

someotherperson 5y ago

"Morallly obtuse" as if that wasn't what the US was doing[0]. I guess the Red Cross centre my cousin worked in was a legitimate military target when it was hit with a US airstrike :) Perhaps if anyone asks the Russians they can just say it was worth it[1]. Let's stop with pretending that the reason why Ukrainian deaths are different is for any other reason than because they're pale skilled Europeans with blue eyes and blonde hair. Most major media have already admitted it, governments have already applauded it in parliament, it's probably about time that HN stops pretending it's about other reasons too. [0] https://www.military.com/video/operations-and-strategy/iraqi-war/contractors-gone-wild-in-iraq/1550587692001 https://www.military.com/video/operations-and-strategy/iraqi... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iFYaeoE3n4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iFYaeoE3n4

jltsiren 5y ago
The real reason why the reactions are different this time is West Europe, not Ukraine. They are fueled more by pragmatic self-interest than by moral concerns. For a long time, West Europe sought good relations with Russia and benefited from trade. That changed when Putin attacked Ukraine. The war hit too close to home, and West European countries could no longer trust Putin's intentions. The primary reaction was a sudden increase in military spending. As a secondary reaction, West Europe gave ok to stronger sanctions that were already supported by East Europe and the US.
stef25 5y ago
Humans seem to have some kind of radius around their emotional center. Personally I'm not ashamed to admit my emotional responses get weaker in response to events that spread outward from my kids, immediate family, my own town, my own country etc ... you get the idea. A bomb going off in Syria doesn't shake me as much as a bomb going off in my home town and that's not a hypothetical example. I'm sure people in Nigeria don't lose much sleep over a bomb going off in Brussels airport. Does that make them racist? What's happening in Ukraine is a completely unprovoked attack by a nuclear power led by a madman who seems to have lost all grip on reality. The potential for escalation in to something nobody ever imagined possible is very real. Lastly, there's also such a thing as "intent". Cynical responses will surely follow but I'm convinced that while the US made many colossal mistakes in the Middle East they never came close to having malicious drive that Russia is showing now.

mandmandam 5y ago

I seem to recall the US' indiscriminate shelling of Iraqi civilian neighborhoods broadcast with patriotic pomp and pride on the news not all that long ago. I even saw some brown people getting murdered by US forces on TV in my local McDonalds at 4 in the day one time.

DoItToMe81 5y ago

The US funded and trained state death squads in Iraq, which engaged in anti-Sunni sectarian violence. We know from leaks that this violence was broadly tolerated, and even encouraged. There are cases of suspected insurgents being handed over to them to be disappeared. The blood is just as much on the hands of the US government as Ukraine's is on the Russian government. By the Iraq War Bodycount's dataset, the civilian kill count of US forces alone, without including the Iraqi government forces, almost matches that of the sectarian terrorists who explicitly sought out to kill civilians. From occupation to leaving in 2011, it is only about 20% less. That is plainly unacceptable and criminal in any context. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/oct/25/iraq-torture-no-secret https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/oct/25/iraq-t... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/24/iraq-war-logs-us-iraqi-torture https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/24/iraq-war-logs-... https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2010-03-10/obama-administration-handed-over-detainees-despite-reports-of-torture https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2010-03-10/oba... https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2011-05-23/us-troops-ordered-not-to-investigate-iraqi-torture https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2011-05-23/us-... https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/iraqs-new-death-squad/ https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/iraqs-new-death-sq... https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/ https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/