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> The current destruction is a result of the incompetence, not an alternative to it. Does "Fallujah" ring a bell? The mirage of the clean, surgical war was cre

> The current destruction is a result of the incompetence, not an alternative to it. Does "Fallujah" ring a bell? The mirage of the clean, surgical war was created by the Clinton administration for the first war in Iraq. Such a thing does not exist and has never been observed accept in carefully manufactured narrative.

hn_zorba 5y ago
The first Irak war (aka "Desert Storm") was not under the Clinton admin, but Bush I, but I agree that the lingo it gave us ("surgical strikes" and the rest) is mostly bullshit.
orwin 5y ago
Wasn't Bush Sr the one that went to Irak for the first Gulf war? And this one was clean, at least compared with US war that followed, and way cleaner than any European war of the 90s.
anothernewdude 5y ago
> Paired with the total sell-out of the Democratic Party to the military industrial complex in the 1990s came the demise of that thing called "pacifism". I find it grating how literally nobody seems to take that idea seriously anymore. If there's any thing I'm taking away from this, it's that Pacifism is dead. You need serious deterrence. Pacifism is what let Putin get this bad.
notahacker 5y ago
No war is perfectly surgical, but Russia itself recently fought successful wars with all objectives achieved with minimal casualties within days (certainly Western narratives around those Russian invasions weren't manufactured to praise them). It's also currently fighting a war in which the main advances stalled because they couldn't supply their troops, and as such has resorted to artillery bombardment of cities it can't seize or in some cases even surround despite incurring more casualties in two weeks than the famously messy US conquest and occupation of Afghanistan suffered in decades.
- random_upvoter 5y ago
  Is there are single instance in history where a country the size of Ukraine was overthrown in less than a month? It took the Nazi army 35 days to conquer the western part of Poland. Ukraine is twice the size of Poland. Huge landmasses just have... mass.
  - notahacker 5y ago
    Sure, it's not straightforward to roll tanks into Lviv. But I don't think not moving in a week whilst sustaining heavier losses than NATO sustained conquering and occupying famously difficult to conquer Afghanistan over two decades (a country which did collapse in a month after they left) was part of the original plan. Open for debate how much of the cities they originally intended to flatten but I can easily believe artillery bombardment was Plan B, with Plan A being the hope Ukraine's command structure would implode and they'd rapidly sue for peace
  - kergonath 5y ago
    On the other hand, Kiev is just next to Belarus. I would not expect them to take entire control of the whole country that quickly (look at how long it takes in Syria where the insurgents have nothing like the Ukrainian military), but it was certainly possible for a competent military to blitzkrieg their way into the presidential palace.
kergonath 5y ago
> The mirage of the clean, surgical war was created by the Clinton administration for the first war in Iraq. Come on, now. The mirage of a clean and easy war is probably as old as war itself. Hell, just look at the media just when WWI was getting started. I can criticise American imperialism as well as anyone but this is ridiculous. Besides the fact that the first Gulf war was under Bush.
atoav 5y ago
I am not American, so back when surgical strikes were promised I already knew what had to be expected.

hn_zorba 5y ago

The first Irak war (aka "Desert Storm") was not under the Clinton admin, but Bush I, but I agree that the lingo it gave us ("surgical strikes" and the rest) is mostly bullshit.

orwin 5y ago

Wasn't Bush Sr the one that went to Irak for the first Gulf war? And this one was clean, at least compared with US war that followed, and way cleaner than any European war of the 90s.

anothernewdude 5y ago

> Paired with the total sell-out of the Democratic Party to the military industrial complex in the 1990s came the demise of that thing called "pacifism". I find it grating how literally nobody seems to take that idea seriously anymore. If there's any thing I'm taking away from this, it's that Pacifism is dead. You need serious deterrence. Pacifism is what let Putin get this bad.

notahacker 5y ago

No war is perfectly surgical, but Russia itself recently fought successful wars with all objectives achieved with minimal casualties within days (certainly Western narratives around those Russian invasions weren't manufactured to praise them). It's also currently fighting a war in which the main advances stalled because they couldn't supply their troops, and as such has resorted to artillery bombardment of cities it can't seize or in some cases even surround despite incurring more casualties in two weeks than the famously messy US conquest and occupation of Afghanistan suffered in decades.

random_upvoter 5y ago
Is there are single instance in history where a country the size of Ukraine was overthrown in less than a month? It took the Nazi army 35 days to conquer the western part of Poland. Ukraine is twice the size of Poland. Huge landmasses just have... mass.
- notahacker 5y ago
  Sure, it's not straightforward to roll tanks into Lviv. But I don't think not moving in a week whilst sustaining heavier losses than NATO sustained conquering and occupying famously difficult to conquer Afghanistan over two decades (a country which did collapse in a month after they left) was part of the original plan. Open for debate how much of the cities they originally intended to flatten but I can easily believe artillery bombardment was Plan B, with Plan A being the hope Ukraine's command structure would implode and they'd rapidly sue for peace
- kergonath 5y ago
  On the other hand, Kiev is just next to Belarus. I would not expect them to take entire control of the whole country that quickly (look at how long it takes in Syria where the insurgents have nothing like the Ukrainian military), but it was certainly possible for a competent military to blitzkrieg their way into the presidential palace.

kergonath 5y ago

> The mirage of the clean, surgical war was created by the Clinton administration for the first war in Iraq. Come on, now. The mirage of a clean and easy war is probably as old as war itself. Hell, just look at the media just when WWI was getting started. I can criticise American imperialism as well as anyone but this is ridiculous. Besides the fact that the first Gulf war was under Bush.

atoav 5y ago

I am not American, so back when surgical strikes were promised I already knew what had to be expected.