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Something which made me want to stay where I am even more is a recent counterexample to this seemingly common response... I went to my CTO with a similar conve

Something which made me want to stay where I am even more is a recent counterexample to this seemingly common response... I went to my CTO with a similar conversation and his response was "totally understand, leave it with me" - 6 hours later he had spoken with whoever it was he needed to speak with, and my ~20% raise was formalised. I was not expecting that response and the way it was handled made me even more happy to stay. The company I work for even improved their benefits in some ways which do not directly affect the salary spend (added unlimited paid leave) to further sweeten the deal for everyone. At the time I assumed they wouldn't want/be able to match it so I was very regretfully ready to go. These conversations sometimes go differently to the way you expect!

blitzar 5y ago
Perhaps helped going to the top of the food chain? Otherwise the 3 managers betwen you and the decising makers start to wonder if they too deserve a 20% pay raise and bat harder for themselves than for you.
- zensavona 5y ago
  Perhaps one of the reasons I received the response which I did is that there is no middle management :)
  - blitzar 5y ago
    Imagine getting the chain of emails through 4 levels of middle management we need +25% for this little guy down here - oh and while we are handing out candy, me too.
vmception 5y ago
> added unlimited paid leave Make sure to use at least 20 days a year Take a whole week off per quarter and set that expectation and the Christmas to New Years time doesnt count so double it in Q4
- Fiahil 5y ago
  Sounds low. Make it seven weeks. That's what most of us get in France.
  - shoo 5y ago
    Why do you think that is? Is the balance of power in France tipped in favour of labour rather than capital? Or is the arrangement in France fairly typical for European countries, and it is countries like the US that are weird exceptions?
    - borski 5y ago
      The US tends to be one of the only countries literally obsessed with worker productivity. Many other countries value worker happiness over worker productivity, generally speaking, partially because of a social safety net.
    - sirwhinesalot 5y ago
      I think 4 weeks is bare minimum in Europe, 5 common, 6 or close to 6 pretty often (my case). I guess in some places it goes to 7.
  - saberience 5y ago
    It's why so few companies want to invest in France and things like Activision Blizzard closing all their French offices. And of course, the radically lower salaries there.
    - Fiahil 5y ago
      This has absolutely nothing to do with companies wanting to invest in France - or not. Blizzard closing its Versailles HQ is also a very bad example, one, because they are in a middle of a massive crisis, and two, because the move was motivated by unnecessary greed and it will most likely cost them an arm and a leg in severance packages.
  - vmception 5y ago
everfrustrated 5y ago
As a manager myself I've had a couple of experiences where my reports have read others negative experiences on HN and presumed it would be true for them also. It's very disheartening to not be even given the chance to fight for more money for my team. Be kind to your manager. If you're seriously interviewing around at least drop hints in your 1:1s so your manager can start the ball rolling about your raise internally.
- polymatter 5y ago
  Why do you need reports to drop hints? Once they are even considering leaving for a greater salary enough that they are interviewing, they are half a step out of there already. You should be proactively fighting for your team on their behalf regardless.
  - wccrawford 5y ago
    This is it exactly. The only "hint" that a manager needs than an IT employee is thinking of leaving is that their salary isn't increasing faster than cost of living. I guarantee they know that they can leave and get a bigger raise. If that happens multiple years in a row, it's not just possible, it's likely.
  - everfrustrated 5y ago
    You need to give your manager the ammunition. A manager going to HR with "cost of living increase please" vs "I have a valued member of my team who is dropping hints theyre unhappy about pay" are very different things. You're presuming all employees are like yourself. Not everybody is motivated by money. I have team members who are well paid, know it, and turn down large increases elsewhere due to the projects they have excite them, etc.
  - rowanajmarshall 5y ago
    Because not everyone has the same priorities. Like, your manager in their mid-30s might value steady employment, a good salary and good benefits, whereas their low-mid 20s report might value fast promotion, salary growth and relocation potential. So if their request to move from London to Seattle got denied, the manager might think it's not a big deal, while for the report it's a complete deal-breaker
nly 5y ago
Unlimited leave is actually a dirty trick. On average people go on less holiday under such a deal, because there's no "use it or lose it" incentive to take time off. Everyone works under the anxiety of wondering how much holiday is acceptable and whether they're taking too much or not enough. I prefer what my employer offers: 30 days paid holiday plus the ability to sell days back to the company.
- borski 5y ago
  It’s only a dirty trick if they don’t mean it. We actively encouraged vacations, and as founders took them ourselves, and it generally worked very well.
  - willcipriano 5y ago
    It's also only a dirty trick if you fall for it. I've spent my life being accused of having autism, sometimes it's good to strategically not be aware of social norms like that.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      I have never had an issue taking every day I was owed, including taking month-long vacations. I have tried to be sensitive to not taking time off at "bad" times but if I was ever generally told I couldn't take my vacation time I would be interviewing.
  - pnutjam 5y ago
    It's still just a way to keep it off the books. In the states, you have to pay out leave people earned and did not take when they resign. That can be very helpful when your pay dates don't line up right due to how different companies handle pay.
    - borski 5y ago
      It’s not “still just a way” to keep it off the books - that’s just a convenient side effect for the company. The overall effect was that more people took more vacation at our company, which was overall a good thing.

blitzar 5y ago

Perhaps helped going to the top of the food chain? Otherwise the 3 managers betwen you and the decising makers start to wonder if they too deserve a 20% pay raise and bat harder for themselves than for you.

zensavona 5y ago
Perhaps one of the reasons I received the response which I did is that there is no middle management :)
- blitzar 5y ago
  Imagine getting the chain of emails through 4 levels of middle management we need +25% for this little guy down here - oh and while we are handing out candy, me too.

vmception 5y ago

> added unlimited paid leave Make sure to use at least 20 days a year Take a whole week off per quarter and set that expectation and the Christmas to New Years time doesnt count so double it in Q4

Fiahil 5y ago
Sounds low. Make it seven weeks. That's what most of us get in France.
- shoo 5y ago
  Why do you think that is? Is the balance of power in France tipped in favour of labour rather than capital? Or is the arrangement in France fairly typical for European countries, and it is countries like the US that are weird exceptions?
  - borski 5y ago
    The US tends to be one of the only countries literally obsessed with worker productivity. Many other countries value worker happiness over worker productivity, generally speaking, partially because of a social safety net.
  - sirwhinesalot 5y ago
    I think 4 weeks is bare minimum in Europe, 5 common, 6 or close to 6 pretty often (my case). I guess in some places it goes to 7.
- saberience 5y ago
  It's why so few companies want to invest in France and things like Activision Blizzard closing all their French offices. And of course, the radically lower salaries there.
  - Fiahil 5y ago
    This has absolutely nothing to do with companies wanting to invest in France - or not. Blizzard closing its Versailles HQ is also a very bad example, one, because they are in a middle of a massive crisis, and two, because the move was motivated by unnecessary greed and it will most likely cost them an arm and a leg in severance packages.
- vmception 5y ago

everfrustrated 5y ago

As a manager myself I've had a couple of experiences where my reports have read others negative experiences on HN and presumed it would be true for them also. It's very disheartening to not be even given the chance to fight for more money for my team. Be kind to your manager. If you're seriously interviewing around at least drop hints in your 1:1s so your manager can start the ball rolling about your raise internally.

polymatter 5y ago
Why do you need reports to drop hints? Once they are even considering leaving for a greater salary enough that they are interviewing, they are half a step out of there already. You should be proactively fighting for your team on their behalf regardless.
- wccrawford 5y ago
  This is it exactly. The only "hint" that a manager needs than an IT employee is thinking of leaving is that their salary isn't increasing faster than cost of living. I guarantee they know that they can leave and get a bigger raise. If that happens multiple years in a row, it's not just possible, it's likely.
- everfrustrated 5y ago
  You need to give your manager the ammunition. A manager going to HR with "cost of living increase please" vs "I have a valued member of my team who is dropping hints theyre unhappy about pay" are very different things. You're presuming all employees are like yourself. Not everybody is motivated by money. I have team members who are well paid, know it, and turn down large increases elsewhere due to the projects they have excite them, etc.
- rowanajmarshall 5y ago
  Because not everyone has the same priorities. Like, your manager in their mid-30s might value steady employment, a good salary and good benefits, whereas their low-mid 20s report might value fast promotion, salary growth and relocation potential. So if their request to move from London to Seattle got denied, the manager might think it's not a big deal, while for the report it's a complete deal-breaker

nly 5y ago

Unlimited leave is actually a dirty trick. On average people go on less holiday under such a deal, because there's no "use it or lose it" incentive to take time off. Everyone works under the anxiety of wondering how much holiday is acceptable and whether they're taking too much or not enough. I prefer what my employer offers: 30 days paid holiday plus the ability to sell days back to the company.

borski 5y ago
It’s only a dirty trick if they don’t mean it. We actively encouraged vacations, and as founders took them ourselves, and it generally worked very well.
- willcipriano 5y ago
  It's also only a dirty trick if you fall for it. I've spent my life being accused of having autism, sometimes it's good to strategically not be aware of social norms like that.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    I have never had an issue taking every day I was owed, including taking month-long vacations. I have tried to be sensitive to not taking time off at "bad" times but if I was ever generally told I couldn't take my vacation time I would be interviewing.
- pnutjam 5y ago
  It's still just a way to keep it off the books. In the states, you have to pay out leave people earned and did not take when they resign. That can be very helpful when your pay dates don't line up right due to how different companies handle pay.
  - borski 5y ago
    It’s not “still just a way” to keep it off the books - that’s just a convenient side effect for the company. The overall effect was that more people took more vacation at our company, which was overall a good thing.