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Russia has 4 clear demands. Why not just give it to them? reject nato, recognize crimea, demilitarize. Putin is a crazy genocidal maniac and war is worse tha

Russia has 4 clear demands. Why not just give it to them? reject nato, recognize crimea, demilitarize. Putin is a crazy genocidal maniac and war is worse than hell since innocents suffer. Why argue about the 4 points and prolong the war? I never understood Zelensky and his obsession to remain in power as well as force all men of Ukraine to fight the war. The west is also glorifying the ukrainian excessively and resulted in thousands of volunteer fighters. The west arming the far right in Ukraine has been repeated umpteen times and has never changed anything. Taliban, isis, syrian free army, libyan rebels, somalian rebels. Did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?

dzikimarian 5y ago
Ukraine has once signed demilitarization treaty. We can see how it went for them. Next year Putin will be in western Ukraine. Then after that in Latvia or Poland. Where are we going to resist? At Berlin or Paris?
_paulc 5y ago
6 day old account that has only posted Russian talking points - hmmmm
- ShivShankaran 5y ago
  - djohnston 5y ago
    Your points are weak comrade. I will try and transfer some rubles for further training, but beware we have been experiencing overflow errors recently.
    - ShivShankaran 5y ago
      - emptyfile 5y ago
        Well I just don't understand. I mean you're literally undermining your own point. The west was incredibly patient with Russia when they annexed Crimea and started a civil war in Ukraine(10 000 dead before this invasion), even as they blew up civilian passenger planes and committed terrorist poison attacks on foreign soil, poisoned their own politicians, built up their police state. Putin explicitly said he was not going to invade Ukraine. Why on earth would anyone believe a word out of this mouth after this invasion? How is negotiating in good faith with such a regime rational? Intelligent discussion? That was supposed to come BEFORE the invasion, the only thing that matters now is to kick Russians out of Ukraine. The genie of war is out of the bottle. The Russian people have blood oh their hands.
  - EB-Barrington 5y ago
    Putin can't end this war. Zelensky can't end this war. Only the Ukrainian people will end this was, and only once they feel justice has been achieved, and injustice removed. Hi from Ukraine
    - iancmceachern 5y ago
      Hang in there, we're rooting for you.
    - ShivShankaran 5y ago
      I am sorry you are going through all of this. It's gut wrenching for me to look at it or even read about it. This is a proxy war between US/Nato and Russia and I will be honestly happy if Russia falls and breaks.
    - chucklenorris 5y ago
      I believe that's true. My feeling is that Putin will not stop if he doesn't get an exit from this war, even though he probaby regrets his decision by now. He miscalculated badly, it was too late for a "special operation", Ukrainians were already armed by US and NATO and more arms are pouring in the country every day. Russian forces are now openly shooting appartment buildings, churches, hospitals and things will get even uglier as he gets more desperate. The Ukrainians are better equipped and have much more resolve so I don't see an end to this conflict. Do you think that Ukrainians will be able to find a compromise before it's too late? PS. i'm not saying that we should give in to a terrorist that holds the world hostage with his nukes, what i'm saying is that I see the end of civilisation and no way that we can avoid it.
  - readthenotes1 5y ago
    Steven Brust has one of his characters claim that the aggressors are the ones who defend against an attack, since they are the ones stopping an action. Of course, that only makes sense if you're a sociopath, as his character was.
  - _paulc 5y ago
    Keep trying apparatchik - we’re not all as weak and stupid as you think.
  - mcphage 5y ago
    > even rational point of winding down the war is met with rabid shriekings I don’t think you have any idea what “rational” means.
  - postingawayonhn 5y ago
    Russia also wants to remove the current government and restore the former dictator to power.
chitza 5y ago
You have a very submissive attitude. Do you do the same when a thug threatens your family? Or when bullies at school ask for your lunch? You just give it to them? Sorry, but your comment is pathetic.
- ShivShankaran 5y ago
  Ukraine is being egged on by US to fight a war it cannot win. They have a clear way out and it's gut wrenching that they want to continue fighting. As for your anecdote if someone was stabbing me and wanted my wallet/bank/whatever, I will throw it in. Stand on the graves of a million dead people and ask them if honor matters. Their silence will be your answer.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - djohnston 5y ago
    Your rhetoric is meaningless. Plenty of people have died for honor that would answer in the affirmative if not dead. That you have a blindspot to that sort of self sacrifice means nothing on behalf of the people fighting for Ukraine.
    - ShivShankaran 5y ago
      Most of them are being forced to fight since it's illegal for men to leave the country. Listen this is exactly the dixie chicks moment. They got death threats, pulled off radio, cds burnt. Its impossible for me to explain anything rational over the din of rabid nationalistic flag waving and posturing to support this proxy war. Zelensky 100% has the option to end the war. Just accept the terms and live another day to fight the bully
      - tguvot 5y ago
        >Most of them are being forced to fight since it's illegal for men to leave the country. Listen this is exactly the dixie chicks moment. illegal to leave country - yes. Forced to fight - no. You need to have a really good connections inside military in order to join military in combat role those days.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
akomtu 5y ago
Putin basically asks Ukraine if it would be so kind to disarm itself and make the invasion easy.
primax 5y ago
This comment is the 'she dressed provocatively so she deserved it' of war justifications. You should be ashamed.
- ShivShankaran 5y ago
  Throughout its two terms, the Obama administration resisted providing overt lethal assistance to Ukraine, concerned that such a move by the U.S. would provoke Russian President Vladimir Putin. Even after Russia’s 2014 annexation of Crimea, President Barack Obama maintained that stance, though his administration did provide a range of other nonlethal military and intelligence assistance to Ukraine, including training. That posture shifted under President Donald Trump, and Washington began a relatively modest flow of weapons shipments. Trump’s attempt to cajole Ukraine into involving itself in his electoral battle with Joe Biden notwithstanding, U.S. military support for Kyiv has ticked steadily upward. Even before Russia’s invasion, the Biden administration had begun a process of increasing lethal aid. https://theintercept.com/2022/03/10/ukraine-russia-nato-weapons/ https://theintercept.com/2022/03/10/ukraine-russia-nato-weap...
  - orwin 5y ago
    It started in November 21, a month after a Russian mechanized division moved from Siberia to a new army field east of Ukraine. Any arms deal started after October 2021 was triggered by the Russians.
eesmith 5y ago
Because a crazy genocidal maniac would invade again after Ukraine has demilitarized , and giving time also to reduce foreign economic dependencies. Politicians as a general rule like to remain in power. You are confused about this? Ukrainian conscription doesn't seem out of place. During WWII, Great Britain enforced full conscription on all male British subjects between 18 and 41 who were present on those islands (with exceptions). And the Germans never made it past the Channel Islands. Had they reached Dover, you seem to believe Churchill wouldn't have conscripted anyone able to handle a weapon?? > the definition of insanity The one that was coined by a participant of an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting? Would you have told the pilots of British Airways Flight 009 they were insane to try to restart the engines after failing so many times? Yet they continued, and saved the lives of everyone onboard. Sounds like a worthless definition to me.
mpfundstein 5y ago
you are down voted like crazy, but i have to say i agree with you. ukraine can not win this war. no way. so why prolonge it for motnhs, years even? so many people will die . but you cant say this nowadays or youre a kremlin spy. like you couldnt be critical of the covid vaxxes without being a conspiracu theorist...
- emptyfile 5y ago
  >ukraine can not win this war. no way I guess the Ukranians disagree!
mcphage 5y ago
Ukraine has only 1, totally reasonable demand—Russia needs to get the fuck out. Maybe they should get their one demand instead of Russia getting their 4.
_kbh_ 5y ago
Ah yes, lay down your arms forever we won’t invade we promise. Says the country that previously promised to never invade when Ukraine gave up its nukes and did it anyway. The promises of the Russian government regarding the security of Ukraine are at best meaningless and at worst actively malicious. The definition of insanity is letting Russia take over parts of whatever country they feel like, based off whatever deluded reasoning they spew. This needs to stop, best way to do that is to cripple the countries ability to fight wars.
- ant6n 5y ago
  I agree with you but would like to qualify one point: > The definition of insanity is letting Russia take over parts of whatever country they feel like, based off whatever deluded reasoning they spew. To be fair, Krim was actually almost completely Russian. So it’s not some random deluded reasoning, it’s basically the same reasoning that Hitler used to get Austria and the Sudetenland. You know, merge the Russian lands into the empire.
  - _kbh_ 5y ago
    It was more a comment on the 'denazification' justification used to go after the rest of Ukraine. But I would also argue that the ethnic makeup of a region doesn't really justify trying to annex it.
  - throwaways85989 5y ago
    Aaaand.. lets dig up the history books, how did crimea become this way- and there it is, ethnic cleansing and replacement with russian civilians during the ruling of the ussr. Thats how a lot of the baltic states in the regions got their russian minorities today. Deport the elite, import russians to life in their homes. Hitlers crimes were rolled back, this crimes stayed and lingered and even worse, are the recipe for todays conquests. This is what ukraine can expect, if putin is victorious. Mass deportations and replacements. It is also the "unoffical" reason why the "planted" people their need russia "for protection" against a "genocide". Every accusation a confession.
emptyfile 5y ago
>Russia has 4 clear demands. Why not just give it to them? Well apparently most Ukraninans would rather die then live their lives under Putin's boot or indeed together with Russians who think its OK to invade other countries and murder people who oppose them. But I believe you when you express puzzlement, this confusion seem to run all the way to the boss.

dzikimarian 5y ago

Ukraine has once signed demilitarization treaty. We can see how it went for them. Next year Putin will be in western Ukraine. Then after that in Latvia or Poland. Where are we going to resist? At Berlin or Paris?

_paulc 5y ago

6 day old account that has only posted Russian talking points - hmmmm

ShivShankaran 5y ago
- djohnston 5y ago
  Your points are weak comrade. I will try and transfer some rubles for further training, but beware we have been experiencing overflow errors recently.
  - ShivShankaran 5y ago
    - emptyfile 5y ago
      Well I just don't understand. I mean you're literally undermining your own point. The west was incredibly patient with Russia when they annexed Crimea and started a civil war in Ukraine(10 000 dead before this invasion), even as they blew up civilian passenger planes and committed terrorist poison attacks on foreign soil, poisoned their own politicians, built up their police state. Putin explicitly said he was not going to invade Ukraine. Why on earth would anyone believe a word out of this mouth after this invasion? How is negotiating in good faith with such a regime rational? Intelligent discussion? That was supposed to come BEFORE the invasion, the only thing that matters now is to kick Russians out of Ukraine. The genie of war is out of the bottle. The Russian people have blood oh their hands.
- EB-Barrington 5y ago
  Putin can't end this war. Zelensky can't end this war. Only the Ukrainian people will end this was, and only once they feel justice has been achieved, and injustice removed. Hi from Ukraine
  - iancmceachern 5y ago
    Hang in there, we're rooting for you.
  - ShivShankaran 5y ago
    I am sorry you are going through all of this. It's gut wrenching for me to look at it or even read about it. This is a proxy war between US/Nato and Russia and I will be honestly happy if Russia falls and breaks.
  - chucklenorris 5y ago
    I believe that's true. My feeling is that Putin will not stop if he doesn't get an exit from this war, even though he probaby regrets his decision by now. He miscalculated badly, it was too late for a "special operation", Ukrainians were already armed by US and NATO and more arms are pouring in the country every day. Russian forces are now openly shooting appartment buildings, churches, hospitals and things will get even uglier as he gets more desperate. The Ukrainians are better equipped and have much more resolve so I don't see an end to this conflict. Do you think that Ukrainians will be able to find a compromise before it's too late? PS. i'm not saying that we should give in to a terrorist that holds the world hostage with his nukes, what i'm saying is that I see the end of civilisation and no way that we can avoid it.
- readthenotes1 5y ago
  Steven Brust has one of his characters claim that the aggressors are the ones who defend against an attack, since they are the ones stopping an action. Of course, that only makes sense if you're a sociopath, as his character was.
- _paulc 5y ago
  Keep trying apparatchik - we’re not all as weak and stupid as you think.
- mcphage 5y ago
  > even rational point of winding down the war is met with rabid shriekings I don’t think you have any idea what “rational” means.
- postingawayonhn 5y ago
  Russia also wants to remove the current government and restore the former dictator to power.

chitza 5y ago

You have a very submissive attitude. Do you do the same when a thug threatens your family? Or when bullies at school ask for your lunch? You just give it to them? Sorry, but your comment is pathetic.

ShivShankaran 5y ago
Ukraine is being egged on by US to fight a war it cannot win. They have a clear way out and it's gut wrenching that they want to continue fighting. As for your anecdote if someone was stabbing me and wanted my wallet/bank/whatever, I will throw it in. Stand on the graves of a million dead people and ask them if honor matters. Their silence will be your answer.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- djohnston 5y ago
  Your rhetoric is meaningless. Plenty of people have died for honor that would answer in the affirmative if not dead. That you have a blindspot to that sort of self sacrifice means nothing on behalf of the people fighting for Ukraine.
  - ShivShankaran 5y ago
    Most of them are being forced to fight since it's illegal for men to leave the country. Listen this is exactly the dixie chicks moment. They got death threats, pulled off radio, cds burnt. Its impossible for me to explain anything rational over the din of rabid nationalistic flag waving and posturing to support this proxy war. Zelensky 100% has the option to end the war. Just accept the terms and live another day to fight the bully
    - tguvot 5y ago
      >Most of them are being forced to fight since it's illegal for men to leave the country. Listen this is exactly the dixie chicks moment. illegal to leave country - yes. Forced to fight - no. You need to have a really good connections inside military in order to join military in combat role those days.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

akomtu 5y ago

Putin basically asks Ukraine if it would be so kind to disarm itself and make the invasion easy.

primax 5y ago

This comment is the 'she dressed provocatively so she deserved it' of war justifications. You should be ashamed.

ShivShankaran 5y ago
Throughout its two terms, the Obama administration resisted providing overt lethal assistance to Ukraine, concerned that such a move by the U.S. would provoke Russian President Vladimir Putin. Even after Russia’s 2014 annexation of Crimea, President Barack Obama maintained that stance, though his administration did provide a range of other nonlethal military and intelligence assistance to Ukraine, including training. That posture shifted under President Donald Trump, and Washington began a relatively modest flow of weapons shipments. Trump’s attempt to cajole Ukraine into involving itself in his electoral battle with Joe Biden notwithstanding, U.S. military support for Kyiv has ticked steadily upward. Even before Russia’s invasion, the Biden administration had begun a process of increasing lethal aid. https://theintercept.com/2022/03/10/ukraine-russia-nato-weapons/ https://theintercept.com/2022/03/10/ukraine-russia-nato-weap...
- orwin 5y ago
  It started in November 21, a month after a Russian mechanized division moved from Siberia to a new army field east of Ukraine. Any arms deal started after October 2021 was triggered by the Russians.

eesmith 5y ago

Because a crazy genocidal maniac would invade again after Ukraine has demilitarized , and giving time also to reduce foreign economic dependencies. Politicians as a general rule like to remain in power. You are confused about this? Ukrainian conscription doesn't seem out of place. During WWII, Great Britain enforced full conscription on all male British subjects between 18 and 41 who were present on those islands (with exceptions). And the Germans never made it past the Channel Islands. Had they reached Dover, you seem to believe Churchill wouldn't have conscripted anyone able to handle a weapon?? > the definition of insanity The one that was coined by a participant of an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting? Would you have told the pilots of British Airways Flight 009 they were insane to try to restart the engines after failing so many times? Yet they continued, and saved the lives of everyone onboard. Sounds like a worthless definition to me.

mpfundstein 5y ago

you are down voted like crazy, but i have to say i agree with you. ukraine can not win this war. no way. so why prolonge it for motnhs, years even? so many people will die . but you cant say this nowadays or youre a kremlin spy. like you couldnt be critical of the covid vaxxes without being a conspiracu theorist...

emptyfile 5y ago
>ukraine can not win this war. no way I guess the Ukranians disagree!

mcphage 5y ago

Ukraine has only 1, totally reasonable demand—Russia needs to get the fuck out. Maybe they should get their one demand instead of Russia getting their 4.

_kbh_ 5y ago

Ah yes, lay down your arms forever we won’t invade we promise. Says the country that previously promised to never invade when Ukraine gave up its nukes and did it anyway. The promises of the Russian government regarding the security of Ukraine are at best meaningless and at worst actively malicious. The definition of insanity is letting Russia take over parts of whatever country they feel like, based off whatever deluded reasoning they spew. This needs to stop, best way to do that is to cripple the countries ability to fight wars.

ant6n 5y ago
I agree with you but would like to qualify one point: > The definition of insanity is letting Russia take over parts of whatever country they feel like, based off whatever deluded reasoning they spew. To be fair, Krim was actually almost completely Russian. So it’s not some random deluded reasoning, it’s basically the same reasoning that Hitler used to get Austria and the Sudetenland. You know, merge the Russian lands into the empire.
- _kbh_ 5y ago
  It was more a comment on the 'denazification' justification used to go after the rest of Ukraine. But I would also argue that the ethnic makeup of a region doesn't really justify trying to annex it.
- throwaways85989 5y ago
  Aaaand.. lets dig up the history books, how did crimea become this way- and there it is, ethnic cleansing and replacement with russian civilians during the ruling of the ussr. Thats how a lot of the baltic states in the regions got their russian minorities today. Deport the elite, import russians to life in their homes. Hitlers crimes were rolled back, this crimes stayed and lingered and even worse, are the recipe for todays conquests. This is what ukraine can expect, if putin is victorious. Mass deportations and replacements. It is also the "unoffical" reason why the "planted" people their need russia "for protection" against a "genocide". Every accusation a confession.

emptyfile 5y ago

>Russia has 4 clear demands. Why not just give it to them? Well apparently most Ukraninans would rather die then live their lives under Putin's boot or indeed together with Russians who think its OK to invade other countries and murder people who oppose them. But I believe you when you express puzzlement, this confusion seem to run all the way to the boss.