5 ms·

Do you feel the same way about body odor?

dimitrios1 5y ago
Or people who live in extreme climates and rely on HVAC systems to pump air conditioned / heated air in their homes and environments the majority of the time? The reality is the majority of our modern world and lives can be seen as a waste of energy, resources, and, "hubris against nature" and it seems like there is some subjective line for each person that delineates what is too far.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- worstestes 5y ago
  Are we really equating technology relevant to our survival in different climates to keeping a manicured lawn?
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    The overwhelming majority of HVAC energy use is for comfort, not survival.
  - dimitrios1 5y ago
    This just proves my point. Quite a generous framing to support your subjective view! "Technology relevant to our survival in different climates" can also be restated as "wasting energy and resources to support people living comfortably in naturally uninhabitable environments", it just depends on what degree of an environmentalist extremist you are. Why should we burn endless amounts of gas/coal/other energy when the "natural" solution is to either naturally adapt or to simply live in more habitable environments. Anyways, yes, I'll give you that comparing HVAC to lawns is silly, but it doesn't take much imagination to think of less silly examples that we accept. So my question is who draws the lines? Whose standard is the standard that everyone should follow? Manicured lawns not cool, ok. What about backyard pools? What about irrigation systems? What about drainage ditches or other infrastructure that allow for land to perk so more housing can be made available, but negatively affects downstream wildlife? Etc, etc.
    - woodruffw 5y ago
      It's not clear that "drawing lines" is a useful mental model in this scenario. Speaking personally, it's about externalities: American suburbs have ludicrous amounts of common and private infrastructure, all financed through the lie of infinite and perpetual growth. All of that infrastructure has hidden externalities, ones that aren't being addressed on the individual or state levels. Monoculture lawns are just one tiny example of that, manifest in their cost to the local ecosystem (and additional water demands, pesticide use, &c.).
enraged_camel 5y ago
I think this is a poor analogy. Body odor is a proxy for personal hygiene, and can be anywhere from unpleasant to actively revolting for others. Whereas how nice your lawn looks will pretty much be a matter of subjective opinion. Things that look orderly may be more pleasant to look at, but the lack of order in this particular context is unlikely to, say, make someone gag. It's worth realizing that carefully curated and maintained lawns are more of a signifier of wealth than anything else. The trend originated in Victorian-era Europe, and somehow stuck.
drekk 5y ago
I don't feel the same way about bacteria colonizing my skin as I do about an ecologically dead crop monoculture that came into style among the British nobility as a way to show off wealth (look peasants! I don't need to grow food with my land) If I ignore the smell of my body I'll eventually be rewarded with a staph infection or worse. If I don't use grass monoculture on my lawn I eventually am rewarded with pollinators, blooms, and an ecologically active space. Lawns require 200 gallons of drinking water per day. In 2005, the amount of lawn cultivated in the US would cover the entire terrestrial surface of Texas. We use 17 million gallons of gas on lawn mowers every year, and tens of millions of pounds of chemical fertilizer and pesticides. All said, Americans spend more than $36 billion USD a year on lawn care, more than 4x the annual budget of the Environmental Protection Agency. At least with a shower I get something out of the water I used. With lawns what do you get? Empty green space. Fuck bees, fuck butterflies, fuck rabbits, I need my neighbors to know I can afford to let my land lay fallow in an aesthetically inert way.
- worthless-trash 5y ago
  > Lawns require 200 gallons of drinking water per day. What horseshit is this ? What water-hungry grass do you use ?
- nightski 5y ago
  Deodorant doesn't prevent infections, pretty sure that is what parent was referring to. Not showers. My lawn gets most of it's water from rain actually. We supplement occasionally when necessary. But during drought we just let it go a little brown. Not a big deal. I still love my lawn and mowing it is a very nice break from sitting on the computer.
- refurb 5y ago
  I can’t imagine getting so worked up over lawns that I post this frothy rage.
  - vibrio 5y ago
    The snarky comment about body odor may have exacerbated things. This conversation quickly descended to an emotional level.

Or people who live in extreme climates and rely on HVAC systems to pump air conditioned / heated air in their homes and environments the majority of the time? The reality is the majority of our modern world and lives can be seen as a waste of energy, resources, and, "hubris against nature" and it seems like there is some subjective line for each person that delineates what is too far.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
worstestes 5y ago
Are we really equating technology relevant to our survival in different climates to keeping a manicured lawn?
- sokoloff 5y ago
  The overwhelming majority of HVAC energy use is for comfort, not survival.
- dimitrios1 5y ago
  This just proves my point. Quite a generous framing to support your subjective view! "Technology relevant to our survival in different climates" can also be restated as "wasting energy and resources to support people living comfortably in naturally uninhabitable environments", it just depends on what degree of an environmentalist extremist you are. Why should we burn endless amounts of gas/coal/other energy when the "natural" solution is to either naturally adapt or to simply live in more habitable environments. Anyways, yes, I'll give you that comparing HVAC to lawns is silly, but it doesn't take much imagination to think of less silly examples that we accept. So my question is who draws the lines? Whose standard is the standard that everyone should follow? Manicured lawns not cool, ok. What about backyard pools? What about irrigation systems? What about drainage ditches or other infrastructure that allow for land to perk so more housing can be made available, but negatively affects downstream wildlife? Etc, etc.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    It's not clear that "drawing lines" is a useful mental model in this scenario. Speaking personally, it's about externalities: American suburbs have ludicrous amounts of common and private infrastructure, all financed through the lie of infinite and perpetual growth. All of that infrastructure has hidden externalities, ones that aren't being addressed on the individual or state levels. Monoculture lawns are just one tiny example of that, manifest in their cost to the local ecosystem (and additional water demands, pesticide use, &c.).

enraged_camel 5y ago

I think this is a poor analogy. Body odor is a proxy for personal hygiene, and can be anywhere from unpleasant to actively revolting for others. Whereas how nice your lawn looks will pretty much be a matter of subjective opinion. Things that look orderly may be more pleasant to look at, but the lack of order in this particular context is unlikely to, say, make someone gag. It's worth realizing that carefully curated and maintained lawns are more of a signifier of wealth than anything else. The trend originated in Victorian-era Europe, and somehow stuck.

drekk 5y ago

I don't feel the same way about bacteria colonizing my skin as I do about an ecologically dead crop monoculture that came into style among the British nobility as a way to show off wealth (look peasants! I don't need to grow food with my land) If I ignore the smell of my body I'll eventually be rewarded with a staph infection or worse. If I don't use grass monoculture on my lawn I eventually am rewarded with pollinators, blooms, and an ecologically active space. Lawns require 200 gallons of drinking water per day. In 2005, the amount of lawn cultivated in the US would cover the entire terrestrial surface of Texas. We use 17 million gallons of gas on lawn mowers every year, and tens of millions of pounds of chemical fertilizer and pesticides. All said, Americans spend more than $36 billion USD a year on lawn care, more than 4x the annual budget of the Environmental Protection Agency. At least with a shower I get something out of the water I used. With lawns what do you get? Empty green space. Fuck bees, fuck butterflies, fuck rabbits, I need my neighbors to know I can afford to let my land lay fallow in an aesthetically inert way.

worthless-trash 5y ago
> Lawns require 200 gallons of drinking water per day. What horseshit is this ? What water-hungry grass do you use ?
nightski 5y ago
Deodorant doesn't prevent infections, pretty sure that is what parent was referring to. Not showers. My lawn gets most of it's water from rain actually. We supplement occasionally when necessary. But during drought we just let it go a little brown. Not a big deal. I still love my lawn and mowing it is a very nice break from sitting on the computer.
refurb 5y ago
I can’t imagine getting so worked up over lawns that I post this frothy rage.
- vibrio 5y ago
  The snarky comment about body odor may have exacerbated things. This conversation quickly descended to an emotional level.