4 ms·

> I think a $500 dishwasher costing $2500 if ordered one part at a time is reasonable. So the cost of assembly line, robots, power and salaries of workers is -

> I think a $500 dishwasher costing $2500 if ordered one part at a time is reasonable. So the cost of assembly line, robots, power and salaries of workers is -400%? Why do you feel the need to come with excuses for whats is ibviously a cash-cow?

sokoloff 5y ago
Maybe you should go into business to undercut this obvious cash-cow? I bet if you start with $10M and undercut the current suppliers, you could become a millionaire.
- treis 5y ago
  Probably shouldn't be quite so snarky when you're wrong. There's a huge industry of non-oem parts that do undercut the OEM and presumably make money.
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  Do you think you can start a dishwasher business for $10M? My preferred modus would be to buy a current manufacturer, then strip out the high paid execs and minimise the profits in the form of very cheap repairs.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    No, but you can start a business that manufactures the parts that HN experts have identified as "cash cows" for less than $10M.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      Your whole attitude indicates that you are largely unaware of the shenanigans manufacturers have been pulling to cutoff supply of repair parts. our taxes pay for customs to seize components of iPhones and file charges on behalf of apple for counterfeit goods. If you take your iphone, travel to china, take it apart there, and send to to the US by post, the customs will seize it as counterfeit. Honest people are going to jail to preserve Apple's profits. https://www.vice.com/en/article/a3yadk/apple-sued-an-independent-iphone-repair-shop-owner-and-lost https://www.vice.com/en/article/a3yadk/apple-sued-an-indepen... You also probably don't know about part serialisation and other efforts that mean that even if you product a compatiable part, the device will reject it. This is the case with tractors and phones. I am not 100% up to date with dishwashers.
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        Your attitude indicates that you think dishwasher parts manufacturers are making excessive profits on repair parts somehow, since at least this post of yours: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30662019 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30662019 Why not go disrupt them and put some of those cash cows into your barn instead? On phones, last weekend I replaced my wife's iPhone X battery with one from Amazon for $18.99 + $1.19 in tax and 45 minutes of very straightforward work. If that $20.18 repair to get an extra 2 years out of the phone is the result of excessive profiteering or protectionism on the part of Apple, I'm pretty sure I'm OK with it and don't need/want government intervention to "fix" it. I could have sent taken it to Apple and gotten it replaced for $70, which also seems totally reasonable to me for a parts-and-labor repair to get 2 more years of service.
        ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        You didn't buy the $20 battery from Apple, did you though?
QuarterReptile 5y ago
How can it be a cash cow when everyone comes to the conclusion that it's not worth buying? In any case, you've neglected logistics, which is at least complicated enough that the Russian invasion of Ukraine has been stalling out on multiple fronts against a much smaller force (this not to denigrate the bravery or capabilities of the Ukranians.)
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  Offering low cost parts cannibalises new sales. Over-charging on parts is a cash cow as you now sell more full price machines, the only cost is the decimation of the environment and waste of limited planetary resources .. but shareholders make even more money, so who cares /s.
  - QuarterReptile 5y ago
    I'm actually open to this argument for larger things that last longer and are less internalize-able, because the friction in the market starts to overwhelm its efficiency. But dishwashers are not that expensive that you're stuck with them. Buying new, cost is less than most new appliances and similar to a phone, less than a laptop. The used market is so soft that, even in my LCOL area (with consequently tighter Craigslist market), I bought my 3 year old stainless steel dishwasher for $150. All this to say, you can bail on your dishwasher if someone starts selling one that is extraordinarily better than everything on the market. As another thought exercise, you have apartment complexes or apartment buildings (working in hand with national or regional builders). These parties have the time horizon, large sample sizes, accounting capacity, and concern for costs to know the absolute best option for appliances in terms of how often maintenance is required and how much it costs. They're a large enough buyer, at least collectively, to constitute a market. Despite all this, the dishwashers in apartments where I've lived or visited seem exactly the same as the ones in friends homes. Why don't apartment complexes use low maintenance dishwashers? My suspicion is that they're complex machines with heaters (highest wear), pumps (high wear), and pressurized water in close proximity to electronics, built to a standard so they can be affordable in every US home. But please, make it better. I like paying extra money for things built with engineer driven design.
jameshart 5y ago
The benefit of the assembly line, robots, consolidation into a factory, and salaries of people dedicated to the assembly process is obviously easily enough to account for this difference. That's why factories exist. If you don't believe that mass production has benefits, you have to come up with some alternative explanation for the 20th century.

sokoloff 5y ago

Maybe you should go into business to undercut this obvious cash-cow? I bet if you start with $10M and undercut the current suppliers, you could become a millionaire.

treis 5y ago
Probably shouldn't be quite so snarky when you're wrong. There's a huge industry of non-oem parts that do undercut the OEM and presumably make money.
pbhjpbhj 5y ago
Do you think you can start a dishwasher business for $10M? My preferred modus would be to buy a current manufacturer, then strip out the high paid execs and minimise the profits in the form of very cheap repairs.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  No, but you can start a business that manufactures the parts that HN experts have identified as "cash cows" for less than $10M.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    Your whole attitude indicates that you are largely unaware of the shenanigans manufacturers have been pulling to cutoff supply of repair parts. our taxes pay for customs to seize components of iPhones and file charges on behalf of apple for counterfeit goods. If you take your iphone, travel to china, take it apart there, and send to to the US by post, the customs will seize it as counterfeit. Honest people are going to jail to preserve Apple's profits. https://www.vice.com/en/article/a3yadk/apple-sued-an-independent-iphone-repair-shop-owner-and-lost https://www.vice.com/en/article/a3yadk/apple-sued-an-indepen... You also probably don't know about part serialisation and other efforts that mean that even if you product a compatiable part, the device will reject it. This is the case with tractors and phones. I am not 100% up to date with dishwashers.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      Your attitude indicates that you think dishwasher parts manufacturers are making excessive profits on repair parts somehow, since at least this post of yours: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30662019 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30662019 Why not go disrupt them and put some of those cash cows into your barn instead? On phones, last weekend I replaced my wife's iPhone X battery with one from Amazon for $18.99 + $1.19 in tax and 45 minutes of very straightforward work. If that $20.18 repair to get an extra 2 years out of the phone is the result of excessive profiteering or protectionism on the part of Apple, I'm pretty sure I'm OK with it and don't need/want government intervention to "fix" it. I could have sent taken it to Apple and gotten it replaced for $70, which also seems totally reasonable to me for a parts-and-labor repair to get 2 more years of service.
      - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        You didn't buy the $20 battery from Apple, did you though?

QuarterReptile 5y ago

How can it be a cash cow when everyone comes to the conclusion that it's not worth buying? In any case, you've neglected logistics, which is at least complicated enough that the Russian invasion of Ukraine has been stalling out on multiple fronts against a much smaller force (this not to denigrate the bravery or capabilities of the Ukranians.)

pbhjpbhj 5y ago
Offering low cost parts cannibalises new sales. Over-charging on parts is a cash cow as you now sell more full price machines, the only cost is the decimation of the environment and waste of limited planetary resources .. but shareholders make even more money, so who cares /s.
- QuarterReptile 5y ago
  I'm actually open to this argument for larger things that last longer and are less internalize-able, because the friction in the market starts to overwhelm its efficiency. But dishwashers are not that expensive that you're stuck with them. Buying new, cost is less than most new appliances and similar to a phone, less than a laptop. The used market is so soft that, even in my LCOL area (with consequently tighter Craigslist market), I bought my 3 year old stainless steel dishwasher for $150. All this to say, you can bail on your dishwasher if someone starts selling one that is extraordinarily better than everything on the market. As another thought exercise, you have apartment complexes or apartment buildings (working in hand with national or regional builders). These parties have the time horizon, large sample sizes, accounting capacity, and concern for costs to know the absolute best option for appliances in terms of how often maintenance is required and how much it costs. They're a large enough buyer, at least collectively, to constitute a market. Despite all this, the dishwashers in apartments where I've lived or visited seem exactly the same as the ones in friends homes. Why don't apartment complexes use low maintenance dishwashers? My suspicion is that they're complex machines with heaters (highest wear), pumps (high wear), and pressurized water in close proximity to electronics, built to a standard so they can be affordable in every US home. But please, make it better. I like paying extra money for things built with engineer driven design.

jameshart 5y ago

The benefit of the assembly line, robots, consolidation into a factory, and salaries of people dedicated to the assembly process is obviously easily enough to account for this difference. That's why factories exist. If you don't believe that mass production has benefits, you have to come up with some alternative explanation for the 20th century.