7 ms·

UK Network Operators Target iCloud Private Relay in Complaint to Regulator

60 points by metahost 5y ago

azalemeth 5y ago
I'm not surprised by this move – the UK's conservative government is very fond of trying to control the internet, and since the "Snooper's Charter" went live in 2016, but apparently half the young population of the UK know about VPNs and 25% tor specifically for getting around blocks on pornography [1] – so clearly, these commercial complaints are doomed to fail. I personally have never used Apple's private relay, but I have encrypted all my traffic since Snooper's Charter. The fact that the industry bodies are complaining about it -- effectively complaining that they can't spy and snoop on their users, often for commercial gain -- makes me think it is effective. [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/poi3.250 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/poi3.250
- mhh__ 5y ago
  I'd amazed if 25% of teenagers actually used Tor. My generation is the tail end of people who actually grew up using computers versus the "mobile"-ized internet for everything, and I was basically the "umm can you darkweb for me pretty please" guy for all my friends. Easy profit. Arbitrage their laziness for my ability to use a computer.
  - giantrobot 5y ago
    You are aware VPNs are not just Tor right? Commercial VPNs have been in the spotlight for at least a decade as a way to spoof streaming and gaming services' regional lockouts. I have no trouble believing 25% of teenagers at least know about VPNs.
    - mhh__ 5y ago
      The comment says "and 25% tor specifically"
      - giantrobot 5y ago
        Which implies that 25% know about Tor and traditional VPNs. So even when a teen isn't necessarily going to use Tor they know that other VPNs exist to get around blocks.
  - howinteresting 5y ago
    Tor is super easy to use on phones these days. On Android you can just install the Tor Browser app.
    - mhh__ 5y ago
      You also have to be able to work out how to use certain types of encryption or so I've heard.
      - crtasm 5y ago
        No, you can just start using it - it's based on the Firefox app.
spzb 5y ago
Everything in their complaint is precisely the reason why their customers want to use Private Relay! We don't want our browsing data observed and analysed by network operators, we want a dumb pipe that gets out of our way.
- mojzu 5y ago
  The arguments they're making are a mix between nonsensical and absurd to me. The only vaguely legitimate point they make is that some users have experienced worse browsing experiences (because it's beta software/because some websites don't play nicely with VPNs), but then say that this is intended to push users away from using Safari? And are they seriously arguing they could build a viable competitor to mobile browsers if only they have access to all our browsing data? Personally I was leaving it off until it was out of beta, but this just convinced me to turn it on
  - lelandfe 5y ago
    > The only vaguely legitimate point they make is that some users have experienced worse browsing While this complaint is definitely them throwing every single dart at the board, the note that Private Relay reduces the government’s ability to monitor internet use is at least legitimate.
    - mojzu 5y ago
      That's fair, although there are so many other products available that do the same thing, run by organisations much less cooperative with governments. Perhaps the scale of a company like Apple providing it changes the equation, but it still strikes me as scare-mongering, however I am of the opinion that the government shouldn't have the ability to passively monitor individual internet use so that probably makes me biased
- Angostura 5y ago
  The article left me wondering whio the right person at the regulator is to contac to counter this (I'm a UK consumer)
gcthomas 5y ago
So the mobile companies are miffed that they can no longer mine the data they carry for their own benefit? It does favour Apple in the market, though, because Apple can still see all the traffic, which is what the CMA in interested in. What is needed is for the mobile companies to offer the same protections that Apple offers, so all will benefit.
- nojito 5y ago
  Apple knows that you are going somewhere...but doesn't know where.
- vlovich123 5y ago
  You’re assuming private relay is like a VPN. It’s not [1]. Apple can see your IP address but not the service you are connecting to. The independent private relay partner (eg cloudflare) can see the service being connected to but not your IP address. The website can see nothing about the connection (unless you login). This also prevents tracking you across sites btw. [1] https://blog.cloudflare.com/icloud-private-relay/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/icloud-private-relay/
- jen20 5y ago
  Apple cannot see the traffic in a meaningful sense [1]. [1]: https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/iCloud_Private_Relay_Overview_Dec2021.PDF https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/iCloud_Private_Relay_Over...
- lelandfe 5y ago
  Yeah - I’m not sure what the state of things are in the UK, but here in America Private Relay is a pretty easy choice, as ISPs sell off your data with aplomb: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/for-sale-your-private-browsing-history/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/for-sale-your-pr...
hughrr 5y ago
This is the best recommendation for a product you could ask for.
dcow 5y ago
While I don't have tons of sympathy for the complaint, it exemplifies a trend we’ve been seeing for a long time: privacy at all costs, trust nobody. I think this stance is dangerous when deployed wholesale and without nuance to our technologies and protocols. Here’s what I mean: rather than technology sewing a ski mask onto my head so that nobody can see me online, I’d rather have technology inform me about the nature of the site or network I’m using so I can make the choice of what my posture should be. I want to trust the services I use because they’re respectable and have earned my trust. If everyone is wearing a mask then how can I trust anyone? I’m not super excited about an internet where we trust nobody. A concrete example: TLS 1.3. What if I want to trust a 3rd party to help me keep an eye on my traffic at a network level? Can’t now because sites can always know if there’s a MITM and of course they assume that’s always bad and unintended. (Perhaps they’re actually more interested in retaining proprietary access to their traffic.) Instead why can’t TLS allow me to configure a cipher-suite that allows me to e.g. run my own proxy for <insert reason>? Same for browsers. Shouldn’t the browser be asking me which pieces of information and which APIs I want to allow a site to access (with sensible defaults, of course) rather than locking all the useful stuff behind “secure contexts”? It’s really hard to not see some of this privacy paranoia as conveniently enabling a lot of subversive platform control…
- dcow 5y ago
  On yeah I forgot to add to the list: * Apple breaking mac addresses for privacy * IPv6 privacy extensions (we can’t give everyone a stable address because tracking). We have stable physical addresses… why is the answer to privacy problems “whelp I guess we cant have a nice global internet after-all? I will concede privacy extensions at least don’t clobber your ability to have a stable address since you still do. I’d just like to see user level control over which address to use for what instead of a blanket all browsing happens with your anonymous address. * Strong PKI/identity: cant give everyone client certs because they have a stable ID somebody might use to track you. IDK how about you give me an option when I connect to a site “do you want to connect as <handle> or connect anonymously”? These privacy violations really feel like a social problem that we’ve failed to wrangle so we reach for a technology solution at all costs.
  - 5y ago
Terry_Roll 5y ago
So as someone who setup a freeswitch PBX with some devices to move the land line onto a computer network and then ran a voip phone on my mobile connected to the freeswitch PBX without and inside a VPN, the teleco's do mess around with voip calls. The national security element is probably valid, but preemptive action is taken against people here in the UK (prejudiced by science or just a form of scientific reinforcement) to mess around with people from an early age. Govt's, Religions and industry leading entities dont want their positions in society messed around with.
airpoint 5y ago
I’ve been thinking of switching to a different operator for a while and this is the last drop. But so now, what’s left on offer if I exclude those associated within the Mobile UK group?
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  Go home, put your phone in the drawer, and use a wired ISP.
- tokamak-teapot 5y ago
  I believe that’s all of them.
petesergeant 5y ago
> Mobile UK says that due to Private Relay, "providers will be unable to use the traffic data to develop their own competing mobile browsers in the future” Thanks but I like my carriers to be dumb pipes
tkw01536 5y ago
I’m wondering what prevents network operators from just disabling the use of Private Relay on their networks. This could be achieved both via legal means (in e.g. their terms of service to prohibit use of any VPNs or similar software) as well as on a technical level. As per [1]: > The fastest and most reliable way to do this is to return a negative answer from the network’s DNS resolver, preventing DNS resolution for the mask.icloud.com and mask-h2.icloud.com hostnames necessary for Private Relay traffic. These ISPs surely operate some DNS resolvers - just make them return NXDOMAIN results. This doesn’t require consent or collaboration from Apple. [1] https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/iCloud_Private_Relay_Overview_Dec2021.PDF https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/iCloud_Private_Relay_Over...
- Gigachad 5y ago
  Because then you have about half your customer base ringing support asking why the internet doesn’t work. Many will complain on social media claiming this ISP just doesn’t work, many will switch to other providers. Apple is bigger and more important than the ISP and likely much more trusted by the consumer.
mrlonglong 5y ago
Oh, fuck those people, why not moan about tor, P2P and other encrypted protocols as well? They're just annoyed they can't monitor communications for the pleasure of the UK government who have historically proven to be a bunch of snoops? As an UK resident, I wish they'd shut up and whine about more important issues instead. Bunch of nosey morons that think there's a potential terrorist hiding under every broadband router!
aaomidi 5y ago
So do they also hate https? How about ECH?
throwoutway 5y ago
Maybe the regulators should interview the customers. I would side with Apple

60 points by metahost 5y ago

I'm not surprised by this move – the UK's conservative government is very fond of trying to control the internet, and since the "Snooper's Charter" went live in 2016, but apparently half the young population of the UK know about VPNs and 25% tor specifically for getting around blocks on pornography [1] – so clearly, these commercial complaints are doomed to fail. I personally have never used Apple's private relay, but I have encrypted all my traffic since Snooper's Charter. The fact that the industry bodies are complaining about it -- effectively complaining that they can't spy and snoop on their users, often for commercial gain -- makes me think it is effective. [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/poi3.250 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/poi3.250

mhh__ 5y ago
I'd amazed if 25% of teenagers actually used Tor. My generation is the tail end of people who actually grew up using computers versus the "mobile"-ized internet for everything, and I was basically the "umm can you darkweb for me pretty please" guy for all my friends. Easy profit. Arbitrage their laziness for my ability to use a computer.
- giantrobot 5y ago
  You are aware VPNs are not just Tor right? Commercial VPNs have been in the spotlight for at least a decade as a way to spoof streaming and gaming services' regional lockouts. I have no trouble believing 25% of teenagers at least know about VPNs.
  - mhh__ 5y ago
    The comment says "and 25% tor specifically"
    - giantrobot 5y ago
      Which implies that 25% know about Tor and traditional VPNs. So even when a teen isn't necessarily going to use Tor they know that other VPNs exist to get around blocks.
- howinteresting 5y ago
  Tor is super easy to use on phones these days. On Android you can just install the Tor Browser app.
  - mhh__ 5y ago
    You also have to be able to work out how to use certain types of encryption or so I've heard.
    - crtasm 5y ago
      No, you can just start using it - it's based on the Firefox app.

spzb 5y ago

Everything in their complaint is precisely the reason why their customers want to use Private Relay! We don't want our browsing data observed and analysed by network operators, we want a dumb pipe that gets out of our way.

mojzu 5y ago
The arguments they're making are a mix between nonsensical and absurd to me. The only vaguely legitimate point they make is that some users have experienced worse browsing experiences (because it's beta software/because some websites don't play nicely with VPNs), but then say that this is intended to push users away from using Safari? And are they seriously arguing they could build a viable competitor to mobile browsers if only they have access to all our browsing data? Personally I was leaving it off until it was out of beta, but this just convinced me to turn it on
- lelandfe 5y ago
  > The only vaguely legitimate point they make is that some users have experienced worse browsing While this complaint is definitely them throwing every single dart at the board, the note that Private Relay reduces the government’s ability to monitor internet use is at least legitimate.
  - mojzu 5y ago
    That's fair, although there are so many other products available that do the same thing, run by organisations much less cooperative with governments. Perhaps the scale of a company like Apple providing it changes the equation, but it still strikes me as scare-mongering, however I am of the opinion that the government shouldn't have the ability to passively monitor individual internet use so that probably makes me biased
Angostura 5y ago
The article left me wondering whio the right person at the regulator is to contac to counter this (I'm a UK consumer)

gcthomas 5y ago

So the mobile companies are miffed that they can no longer mine the data they carry for their own benefit? It does favour Apple in the market, though, because Apple can still see all the traffic, which is what the CMA in interested in. What is needed is for the mobile companies to offer the same protections that Apple offers, so all will benefit.

nojito 5y ago
Apple knows that you are going somewhere...but doesn't know where.
vlovich123 5y ago
You’re assuming private relay is like a VPN. It’s not [1]. Apple can see your IP address but not the service you are connecting to. The independent private relay partner (eg cloudflare) can see the service being connected to but not your IP address. The website can see nothing about the connection (unless you login). This also prevents tracking you across sites btw. [1] https://blog.cloudflare.com/icloud-private-relay/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/icloud-private-relay/
jen20 5y ago
Apple cannot see the traffic in a meaningful sense [1]. [1]: https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/iCloud_Private_Relay_Overview_Dec2021.PDF https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/iCloud_Private_Relay_Over...
lelandfe 5y ago
Yeah - I’m not sure what the state of things are in the UK, but here in America Private Relay is a pretty easy choice, as ISPs sell off your data with aplomb: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/for-sale-your-private-browsing-history/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/for-sale-your-pr...

hughrr 5y ago

This is the best recommendation for a product you could ask for.

dcow 5y ago

While I don't have tons of sympathy for the complaint, it exemplifies a trend we’ve been seeing for a long time: privacy at all costs, trust nobody. I think this stance is dangerous when deployed wholesale and without nuance to our technologies and protocols. Here’s what I mean: rather than technology sewing a ski mask onto my head so that nobody can see me online, I’d rather have technology inform me about the nature of the site or network I’m using so I can make the choice of what my posture should be. I want to trust the services I use because they’re respectable and have earned my trust. If everyone is wearing a mask then how can I trust anyone? I’m not super excited about an internet where we trust nobody. A concrete example: TLS 1.3. What if I want to trust a 3rd party to help me keep an eye on my traffic at a network level? Can’t now because sites can always know if there’s a MITM and of course they assume that’s always bad and unintended. (Perhaps they’re actually more interested in retaining proprietary access to their traffic.) Instead why can’t TLS allow me to configure a cipher-suite that allows me to e.g. run my own proxy for <insert reason>? Same for browsers. Shouldn’t the browser be asking me which pieces of information and which APIs I want to allow a site to access (with sensible defaults, of course) rather than locking all the useful stuff behind “secure contexts”? It’s really hard to not see some of this privacy paranoia as conveniently enabling a lot of subversive platform control…

dcow 5y ago
On yeah I forgot to add to the list: * Apple breaking mac addresses for privacy * IPv6 privacy extensions (we can’t give everyone a stable address because tracking). We have stable physical addresses… why is the answer to privacy problems “whelp I guess we cant have a nice global internet after-all? I will concede privacy extensions at least don’t clobber your ability to have a stable address since you still do. I’d just like to see user level control over which address to use for what instead of a blanket all browsing happens with your anonymous address. * Strong PKI/identity: cant give everyone client certs because they have a stable ID somebody might use to track you. IDK how about you give me an option when I connect to a site “do you want to connect as <handle> or connect anonymously”? These privacy violations really feel like a social problem that we’ve failed to wrangle so we reach for a technology solution at all costs.
- 5y ago

Terry_Roll 5y ago

So as someone who setup a freeswitch PBX with some devices to move the land line onto a computer network and then ran a voip phone on my mobile connected to the freeswitch PBX without and inside a VPN, the teleco's do mess around with voip calls. The national security element is probably valid, but preemptive action is taken against people here in the UK (prejudiced by science or just a form of scientific reinforcement) to mess around with people from an early age. Govt's, Religions and industry leading entities dont want their positions in society messed around with.

airpoint 5y ago

I’ve been thinking of switching to a different operator for a while and this is the last drop. But so now, what’s left on offer if I exclude those associated within the Mobile UK group?

denton-scratch 5y ago
Go home, put your phone in the drawer, and use a wired ISP.
tokamak-teapot 5y ago
I believe that’s all of them.

petesergeant 5y ago

> Mobile UK says that due to Private Relay, "providers will be unable to use the traffic data to develop their own competing mobile browsers in the future” Thanks but I like my carriers to be dumb pipes

tkw01536 5y ago

I’m wondering what prevents network operators from just disabling the use of Private Relay on their networks. This could be achieved both via legal means (in e.g. their terms of service to prohibit use of any VPNs or similar software) as well as on a technical level. As per [1]: > The fastest and most reliable way to do this is to return a negative answer from the network’s DNS resolver, preventing DNS resolution for the mask.icloud.com and mask-h2.icloud.com hostnames necessary for Private Relay traffic. These ISPs surely operate some DNS resolvers - just make them return NXDOMAIN results. This doesn’t require consent or collaboration from Apple. [1] https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/iCloud_Private_Relay_Overview_Dec2021.PDF https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/iCloud_Private_Relay_Over...

Gigachad 5y ago
Because then you have about half your customer base ringing support asking why the internet doesn’t work. Many will complain on social media claiming this ISP just doesn’t work, many will switch to other providers. Apple is bigger and more important than the ISP and likely much more trusted by the consumer.

mrlonglong 5y ago

Oh, fuck those people, why not moan about tor, P2P and other encrypted protocols as well? They're just annoyed they can't monitor communications for the pleasure of the UK government who have historically proven to be a bunch of snoops? As an UK resident, I wish they'd shut up and whine about more important issues instead. Bunch of nosey morons that think there's a potential terrorist hiding under every broadband router!

aaomidi 5y ago

So do they also hate https? How about ECH?

throwoutway 5y ago

Maybe the regulators should interview the customers. I would side with Apple