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Neither did Keynes. Keynes argued for counter cyclic spending to balance cycles and flexible forms of money. The levels of debt we have would horrify him. Ther

by api 5y ago

Neither did Keynes. Keynes argued for counter cyclic spending to balance cycles and flexible forms of money. The levels of debt we have would horrify him. There are endlessly many more who are similar. Much of what we think Marx said actually came from Lenin. Ayn Rand was not a conservative. And so on…

netcan 5y ago
I'd call nonsense on the Keynes point. Keynes argued for all sorts of things at different points in time. He never observed any sort of Keynesian doctrine or orthodoxy himself. Also, the actual money system was very varied across his career, so prescriptions differ. The current monetary order wasn't something he dealt with at a large scale. In any case, I'm pretty sure Keynes would have called bullshit on the way public debt is quantified or defined today. IE, the sum of money "owed" by Germany or Italy to the ECB would not have worried Keynes... though I think he would have been very interested. Just to be clear, the a priori conservative hypothesis was that 2022 levels of debt are not just morally bad... they're an economic impossibility. Well...
unfocussed_mike 5y ago
> Ayn Rand was not a conservative. Which is far less important than the fact that she and Objectivism are not even coherent. Its lack of coherence is what got us to 2016 and beyond on both sides of the pond, and explains the tech industry's obsession with profit-maximising billionaires who are so uncommitted to progress that they are building survival boltholes in New Zealand. She would have been amazed, admiring and horrified all at once; it's the purest moment for her terrible, terrible nonsense, and its consequences play out for everyone to see.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  There is one billionaire I can think of who is "building a survival bolthole" in NZ, and that's Peter Thiel. Who is eccentric even as far as billionaires go, and who doesn't really have a "survival bolthole" there, just a normal extravagant mansion.
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    > normal extravagant mansion. There's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one.
    - missedthecue 5y ago
      Out of all the mansions, it's not exceptional
  - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
    It was a sardonic point, not a literal point. But it's also a reference to preppers generally among the billionaire classes -- "buying somewhere in New Zealand" is sort of billionaire nudge-wink-speak for a wider trend (according to Reid Hoffman who is quoted below). https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-for-the-super-rich https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/17/billionaires-bolthole-new-zealand-preppers-paradise https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/17/billionaires-b... https://peakoil.com/consumption/tech-billionaires-are-building-boltholes-in-new-zealand-because-they-now-fear-social-collapse-or-nuclear-war https://peakoil.com/consumption/tech-billionaires-are-buildi... Basically, the Randian supermen maximising their happiness are so fully aware of the downside risk of being super-rich that they are now fearfully planning to maximise their happiness somewhere a gang of poor people with guns can be fended off. This is an actual observable trend. It just doesn't always specifically involve New Zealand.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- chmod600 5y ago
  The idea that Ayn Rand influenced the outcome of the 2016 election in Trump's favor is conspiracy theory territory. And you seem to have forgotten about the tech bilionaire who brought us good electric cars and cheap access to space.
pessimizer 5y ago
> The levels of debt we have would horrify him. But not specifically government debt, which I can't recall him caring about. The balance of payments, yes. That's what the bancor was for, but it was sabotaged by a high-level US representative that also turned out to be a Soviet informant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Dexter_White https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Dexter_White

by api 5y ago

netcan 5y ago

I'd call nonsense on the Keynes point. Keynes argued for all sorts of things at different points in time. He never observed any sort of Keynesian doctrine or orthodoxy himself. Also, the actual money system was very varied across his career, so prescriptions differ. The current monetary order wasn't something he dealt with at a large scale. In any case, I'm pretty sure Keynes would have called bullshit on the way public debt is quantified or defined today. IE, the sum of money "owed" by Germany or Italy to the ECB would not have worried Keynes... though I think he would have been very interested. Just to be clear, the a priori conservative hypothesis was that 2022 levels of debt are not just morally bad... they're an economic impossibility. Well...

unfocussed_mike 5y ago

> Ayn Rand was not a conservative. Which is far less important than the fact that she and Objectivism are not even coherent. Its lack of coherence is what got us to 2016 and beyond on both sides of the pond, and explains the tech industry's obsession with profit-maximising billionaires who are so uncommitted to progress that they are building survival boltholes in New Zealand. She would have been amazed, admiring and horrified all at once; it's the purest moment for her terrible, terrible nonsense, and its consequences play out for everyone to see.

missedthecue 5y ago
There is one billionaire I can think of who is "building a survival bolthole" in NZ, and that's Peter Thiel. Who is eccentric even as far as billionaires go, and who doesn't really have a "survival bolthole" there, just a normal extravagant mansion.
- ModernMech 5y ago
  > normal extravagant mansion. There's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one.
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    Out of all the mansions, it's not exceptional
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  It was a sardonic point, not a literal point. But it's also a reference to preppers generally among the billionaire classes -- "buying somewhere in New Zealand" is sort of billionaire nudge-wink-speak for a wider trend (according to Reid Hoffman who is quoted below). https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-for-the-super-rich https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/17/billionaires-bolthole-new-zealand-preppers-paradise https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/17/billionaires-b... https://peakoil.com/consumption/tech-billionaires-are-building-boltholes-in-new-zealand-because-they-now-fear-social-collapse-or-nuclear-war https://peakoil.com/consumption/tech-billionaires-are-buildi... Basically, the Randian supermen maximising their happiness are so fully aware of the downside risk of being super-rich that they are now fearfully planning to maximise their happiness somewhere a gang of poor people with guns can be fended off. This is an actual observable trend. It just doesn't always specifically involve New Zealand.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
chmod600 5y ago
The idea that Ayn Rand influenced the outcome of the 2016 election in Trump's favor is conspiracy theory territory. And you seem to have forgotten about the tech bilionaire who brought us good electric cars and cheap access to space.

pessimizer 5y ago

> The levels of debt we have would horrify him. But not specifically government debt, which I can't recall him caring about. The balance of payments, yes. That's what the bancor was for, but it was sabotaged by a high-level US representative that also turned out to be a Soviet informant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Dexter_White https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Dexter_White