5 ms·

I think I agree with the thrust of the video. My caveats would be: 1) When anybody dunks on "modern movies", they mean "modern movies with $>100m marketing bud

by Joeboy 5y ago

I think I agree with the thrust of the video. My caveats would be: 1) When anybody dunks on "modern movies", they mean "modern movies with $>100m marketing budgets". Which is actually a small minority of modern movies. 2) The messaging has changed, but movies have always had terrible messaging in them. Edit: Maybe it's a bad idea to say this out loud, but when you get protagonists who are "just born preternaturally awesome", they're generally female, right? I'm not sure the same trend applies for male protagonists.

moltke 5y ago
That's an underrated comment, there are tons of good indie movies.
Eddy_Viscosity2 5y ago
There are also lots of modern movies sub-$100M budget that suck spectacularly. Many of them star Bruce Willis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd1eNS9HtXo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd1eNS9HtXo
karpierz 5y ago
> Edit: Maybe it's a bad idea to say this out loud, but when you get protagonists who are "just born preternaturally awesome", they're generally female, right? I'm not sure the same trend applies for male protagonists. I think this is a bit of selective memory ala: https://xkcd.com/385/ https://xkcd.com/385/ Did you have particular movies in mind with this? The whole Marvel universe is riddled with male protagonists who are simply better than other people. That's the whole schtick that the Watchmen criticises.
- Joeboy 5y ago
  Surely the whole point of Watchmen was that superheros aren't better than other people. For the last couple of decades cinema's been reinventing (male) superheroes as "complex characters" with flaws, moral weaknesses and questionable motivations. Like you say, maybe I'm remembering selectively but I think that's less the case for Black Widow, Captain Marvel or Wonder Woman than it is for Iron Man, Superman or Batman. Can you imagine Marvel greenlighting a female-led equivalent of Logan? For what it's worth, I now regret saying anything, and will try to restrain myself from saying anything else.
  - darkerside 5y ago
    Atomic Blonde was a great example of a total badass female character who actually had to earn her ending
JeremyNT 5y ago
> Maybe it's a bad idea to say this out loud, but when you get protagonists who are "just born preternaturally awesome", they're generally female, right? I'm not sure the same trend applies for male protagonists. Do you watch many superhero movies? Because I feel like you must not. Many of the characters are literal gods, and many more are just uncannily good at everything because of some hand wavey backstory. Even the characters that start off "normal" tend to become awesome by simply being in the right place at the right time and being exposed to some external force (rather than through overcoming flaws or weaknesses on their own).
- Joeboy 5y ago
  I think it's more about the stakes, obstacles, "psychic wounds" etc, than the actual superpowers. Being born with superpowers isn't that big a deal, if you're in a film where every other significant character also has superpowers. Spider-man lets his uncle die because he's busy showing off. Batman in The Dark Knight "has no cartilage in his knees, scar tissue on his kidneys, concussive damage to his brain, and a host of other issues". Bruce Banner is subject to fits of uncontrollable rage. Logan is dying and in constant pain. Doctor Strange's hands are mutilated due to a car crash caused by his own arrogance. IIRC Wonder Woman has a naivity due to growing up on a remote island populated by women, but she's basically confident and hypercompetent throughout. Captain Marvel's big issue is she's forgotten she has galactically important superpowers. Black Widow's character has a bit more going on, and I liked the film better than the other two. But, I think there is a difference between the amount of freedom big budget movie screenwriters have with male and female characters. At lower budgetary levels, you're more likely to see women with less straightforwardly heroic characters, facing more interesting or engaging stakes. Before Captain Marvel Brie Larson was doing great indie flicks like Room and Free Fire. She's said she was quite conflicted about taking the role, and I can't blame her for taking the money but I think I understand her hesitation.
aaron695 5y ago
staticman2 5y ago
James Bond is as generically "the best at everything" as you can get. Whatever the villain is into, golf, fencing, gambling, etc. James Bond will challenge the villain at his hobby and beat him before the action even begins. Edited to add: But the biggest example is probably Superman, just born super at everything.
- Joeboy 5y ago
  That's more a description of 20th century Bond than Craig-era Bond. Contemporary Bond is a traumatized alcoholic who only passes a medical because M fixes his results. IIRC In Casino Royale he crashes his DB5 and is captured by his nemesis, who proceeds to beat his genitals with a knotted rope. That sort of thing doesn't happen to Captain Marvel (or Roger Moore). It's admittedly a while since I've followed anything to do with Superman. I'm imagining he's undergone a similar reinvention, but I admit I'm guessing.

by Joeboy 5y ago

moltke 5y ago

That's an underrated comment, there are tons of good indie movies.

Eddy_Viscosity2 5y ago

There are also lots of modern movies sub-$100M budget that suck spectacularly. Many of them star Bruce Willis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd1eNS9HtXo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd1eNS9HtXo

karpierz 5y ago

> Edit: Maybe it's a bad idea to say this out loud, but when you get protagonists who are "just born preternaturally awesome", they're generally female, right? I'm not sure the same trend applies for male protagonists. I think this is a bit of selective memory ala: https://xkcd.com/385/ https://xkcd.com/385/ Did you have particular movies in mind with this? The whole Marvel universe is riddled with male protagonists who are simply better than other people. That's the whole schtick that the Watchmen criticises.

Joeboy 5y ago
Surely the whole point of Watchmen was that superheros aren't better than other people. For the last couple of decades cinema's been reinventing (male) superheroes as "complex characters" with flaws, moral weaknesses and questionable motivations. Like you say, maybe I'm remembering selectively but I think that's less the case for Black Widow, Captain Marvel or Wonder Woman than it is for Iron Man, Superman or Batman. Can you imagine Marvel greenlighting a female-led equivalent of Logan? For what it's worth, I now regret saying anything, and will try to restrain myself from saying anything else.
- darkerside 5y ago
  Atomic Blonde was a great example of a total badass female character who actually had to earn her ending

JeremyNT 5y ago

> Maybe it's a bad idea to say this out loud, but when you get protagonists who are "just born preternaturally awesome", they're generally female, right? I'm not sure the same trend applies for male protagonists. Do you watch many superhero movies? Because I feel like you must not. Many of the characters are literal gods, and many more are just uncannily good at everything because of some hand wavey backstory. Even the characters that start off "normal" tend to become awesome by simply being in the right place at the right time and being exposed to some external force (rather than through overcoming flaws or weaknesses on their own).

Joeboy 5y ago
I think it's more about the stakes, obstacles, "psychic wounds" etc, than the actual superpowers. Being born with superpowers isn't that big a deal, if you're in a film where every other significant character also has superpowers. Spider-man lets his uncle die because he's busy showing off. Batman in The Dark Knight "has no cartilage in his knees, scar tissue on his kidneys, concussive damage to his brain, and a host of other issues". Bruce Banner is subject to fits of uncontrollable rage. Logan is dying and in constant pain. Doctor Strange's hands are mutilated due to a car crash caused by his own arrogance. IIRC Wonder Woman has a naivity due to growing up on a remote island populated by women, but she's basically confident and hypercompetent throughout. Captain Marvel's big issue is she's forgotten she has galactically important superpowers. Black Widow's character has a bit more going on, and I liked the film better than the other two. But, I think there is a difference between the amount of freedom big budget movie screenwriters have with male and female characters. At lower budgetary levels, you're more likely to see women with less straightforwardly heroic characters, facing more interesting or engaging stakes. Before Captain Marvel Brie Larson was doing great indie flicks like Room and Free Fire. She's said she was quite conflicted about taking the role, and I can't blame her for taking the money but I think I understand her hesitation.

aaron695 5y ago

staticman2 5y ago

James Bond is as generically "the best at everything" as you can get. Whatever the villain is into, golf, fencing, gambling, etc. James Bond will challenge the villain at his hobby and beat him before the action even begins. Edited to add: But the biggest example is probably Superman, just born super at everything.

Joeboy 5y ago
That's more a description of 20th century Bond than Craig-era Bond. Contemporary Bond is a traumatized alcoholic who only passes a medical because M fixes his results. IIRC In Casino Royale he crashes his DB5 and is captured by his nemesis, who proceeds to beat his genitals with a knotted rope. That sort of thing doesn't happen to Captain Marvel (or Roger Moore). It's admittedly a while since I've followed anything to do with Superman. I'm imagining he's undergone a similar reinvention, but I admit I'm guessing.