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> Yet after so many mutations of covid, all we have is still the original version of covid mRNA vaccine. Why? Think of COVID as a human being. The mRNA vaccine

by mike_d 5y ago

> Yet after so many mutations of covid, all we have is still the original version of covid mRNA vaccine. Why? Think of COVID as a human being. The mRNA vaccine teaches your immune system to recognize and destroy hands instead of a whole person. As a result your immune system can detect all shapes and sizes of people as long as they have hands. It is possible for the virus to mutate to use claws instead of hands, but then it isn't as effective at grabbing cells to infect them.

colordrops 5y ago
The point was that mRNA vaccines should be able to be quickly adapted to detect claws.
- fastball 5y ago
  An mRNA vaccine could be designed tomorrow to target claws instead of hands, the issue is how long it takes to test them / get approval to use them, not how long it takes to develop them. In the case of an incredibly rapidly mutating virus like COVID-19 it's just not worth it to go through that whole process every time it goes from hands to claws to hooves.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - timr 5y ago
    > it's just not worth it to go through that whole process every time it goes from hands to claws to hooves. It's not that it's not worth it, it's that this approach doesn't work. Evolution is a remarkable force, and unless there's a good reason for the part of the virus/bacteria/amoeba you're targeting to stay that way, it will change to escape the selective pressure against it. We're more-or-less seeing this with SARS-CoV2, even though the virus is a relative amateur at genetic drift. OK, you may say "let's target the vaccine against a part that doesn't change"...that's great, except that those parts tend to be so common -- so "evolutionarily conserved" -- that you see them all over the place, including, often enough...your own body. Train your immune system to (over)react against common antigens, and you're going to cause problems. The primary reason that vaccine development is difficult is because you have an extremely high bar for effectiveness, coupled with an extremely low bar for side-effects. And even if you find such a unicorn target, you have to make sure it stays magical over time. The mRNA technologies are great and do accelerate things, but ultimately, the speed of the Covid vaccine development process was more about our willingness to throw huge money at the problem and eliminate all development and liability risk, than it was about any particular technology platform.
    - fastball 5y ago
      > The mRNA technologies are great and do accelerate things, but ultimately, the speed of the Covid vaccine development process was more about... Nope, the Moderna vaccine was designed in 2 days after getting a full DNA sequencing of the virus. Very rapid design is a particular feature of mRNA vaccines (with the caveat that sequencing to find the right proteins is required).
      - timr 5y ago
        Yes, as I said, the technology accelerates things somewhat. But to put it in a computer science context, it's like slightly reducing the constant on an O(n^3) algorithm. You're making things faster, sure, but you're not really going to affect the time to create a vaccine. Said differently: the slow part of creating a vaccine is doing the trials to make sure you have safe and effective target.
        fastball 5y ago
        Yes, that was literally the point I made in the first comment. Not sure what we're arguing about.
- kingkawn 5y ago
  The vaccines can quickly adapt, but the process of proving each version safe to use takes time each time.

by mike_d 5y ago

colordrops 5y ago

The point was that mRNA vaccines should be able to be quickly adapted to detect claws.

fastball 5y ago
An mRNA vaccine could be designed tomorrow to target claws instead of hands, the issue is how long it takes to test them / get approval to use them, not how long it takes to develop them. In the case of an incredibly rapidly mutating virus like COVID-19 it's just not worth it to go through that whole process every time it goes from hands to claws to hooves.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- timr 5y ago
  > it's just not worth it to go through that whole process every time it goes from hands to claws to hooves. It's not that it's not worth it, it's that this approach doesn't work. Evolution is a remarkable force, and unless there's a good reason for the part of the virus/bacteria/amoeba you're targeting to stay that way, it will change to escape the selective pressure against it. We're more-or-less seeing this with SARS-CoV2, even though the virus is a relative amateur at genetic drift. OK, you may say "let's target the vaccine against a part that doesn't change"...that's great, except that those parts tend to be so common -- so "evolutionarily conserved" -- that you see them all over the place, including, often enough...your own body. Train your immune system to (over)react against common antigens, and you're going to cause problems. The primary reason that vaccine development is difficult is because you have an extremely high bar for effectiveness, coupled with an extremely low bar for side-effects. And even if you find such a unicorn target, you have to make sure it stays magical over time. The mRNA technologies are great and do accelerate things, but ultimately, the speed of the Covid vaccine development process was more about our willingness to throw huge money at the problem and eliminate all development and liability risk, than it was about any particular technology platform.
  - fastball 5y ago
    > The mRNA technologies are great and do accelerate things, but ultimately, the speed of the Covid vaccine development process was more about... Nope, the Moderna vaccine was designed in 2 days after getting a full DNA sequencing of the virus. Very rapid design is a particular feature of mRNA vaccines (with the caveat that sequencing to find the right proteins is required).
    - timr 5y ago
      Yes, as I said, the technology accelerates things somewhat. But to put it in a computer science context, it's like slightly reducing the constant on an O(n^3) algorithm. You're making things faster, sure, but you're not really going to affect the time to create a vaccine. Said differently: the slow part of creating a vaccine is doing the trials to make sure you have safe and effective target.
      - fastball 5y ago
        Yes, that was literally the point I made in the first comment. Not sure what we're arguing about.
kingkawn 5y ago
The vaccines can quickly adapt, but the process of proving each version safe to use takes time each time.