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From your source: "Israeli politicians say the law is both an essential security measure to prevent Palestinian terror attacks and a means of preserving a Jewis

From your source: "Israeli politicians say the law is both an essential security measure to prevent Palestinian terror attacks and a means of preserving a Jewish majority in Israel." Maybe it's more of an immigration policy than a security policy?

vkou 5y ago
It's a policy of apartheid, which is motivated by both immigration and security. Fortunately, as we have learned over the past few weeks, sanctions are an effective means of pushback against archaic 20-th century statesmanship.
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  Unfortunately, geopolitics all but guarantee this will never happen so long as Israel is a strong western ally
  - vkou 5y ago
    Does it have to be? Does it operate a gas pipeline that heats Germany, or something? Is it an irreplaceable source of titanium? A major wheat exporter? Is the West planning to use it as a launchpad for a war of aggression in the region?
    - bradlys 5y ago
      > Is the West planning to use it as a launchpad for a war of aggression in the region? Pretty sure this was the reason. It’s a tactical piece that they want to keep control over. Everyone else in the region hates them (and rightfully so).
      - throwaway2048 5y ago
        Considering Israel does not, and never has allowed American forces to be stationed inside Israel, this seems pretty unlikely.
        bradlys 5y ago
        You do know you don't have to have your own troops in a specific area for it to be a tactical asset, right?
        renewiltord 5y ago
        They will do what we want when it matters. Even better that their people die in our service than ours.
      - chmod600 5y ago
        I'm not sure quite what you mean by "rightfully hates them" but it sounds pretty scary to me.
        skrtskrt 5y ago
        they mean the west has systematically overthrown governments, strip-mined the natural resources, drawn arbitrary country borders, funded extremist groups, bombed civilian populations, gone to war because the extremists they originally backed got too strong, etc etc in the Middle East for generations then if all else fails, they do sanctions, which of course NEVER affect the ruling class, they merely provide the rulers a tool to point more hatred at the west - you think it's the ruling class that can't get diabetes medication due to sanctions? No of course not, it's the average person.
        chmod600 5y ago
        In the comment to which I replied, "them" refers to Jewish Israelis ("Everyone else in the region hates them"). Jewish Israelis are Middle Eastern, not part of the West.
        bradlys 5y ago
        My "them" was actually a reference to the west. Jewish Israelis is a fair argument too. Both are true.
  - unmole 5y ago
    It will not happen as long as there exists a strong pro-Israel lobby in the US. Israel passed on confidential US military technology to China and abstained in the Security Council resolution against Russia. That's not the behaviour of a strong ally.
    - Fatnino 5y ago
      Israel did not abstain, they voted for. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_ES-11/1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assem... Im also interested in what you construe as evidence that Israel passed US confidential anything to China.
  - bell-cot 5y ago
    's/so long as Israel is a strong western ally/so long as being "insufficiently pro-Israel" makes it difficult to gain or retain elective office in most Western democracies/g'
- next_xibalba 5y ago
  > as we have learned over the past few weeks, sanctions are an effective means of pushback Not really. The war in Ukraine is intensifying. Russia sees the sanctions regime as an act of war. I'm not sure what the off ramp would be, and I generally support the sanctions. But I don't think your conclusions are sound. Pushback? Yes. Effective? Not so far.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- OOPMan 5y ago
  As someone born and raised in South Africa that lived there until the end of 2019 I really wish people would stop comparing Israel to the old government in ZA. The Israeli government definitely does a ton of problematic stuff that is objectively awful but it's just not quite the same as what the old government in my country used to do. I am sure I will get downvoted for this, but the situation with Israel/Palestine is not quite the same as what existed in South Africa for a significant chunk of the 20th century. That doesn't mean it's a nice situation but really, I just would prefer it if people would stop trying to weld one shitty piece of history to another one to try and create this weird equivalency between the two.
  - mabbo 5y ago
    Is there a better analogy to compare the situation to? Language is about communicating ideas efficiently. Apartheid is a good word for what is happening, and our response should be the same as it was in South Africa.
    - chmod600 5y ago
      My understanding is that, once you're a citizen of Israel, you have the same rights as other Israeli citizens, regardless of race or religion. Under apartheid, rights were infringed based on race.
      - mabbo 5y ago
        But is it really so different if we replace race with religion? Israel doesn't recognize people who join the religion- it's effectively based on birth just as much as race. We have a government over a people that determines the rights of each person based on who their parents were. That's the core concept that I, for one, am opposed to.
        ashwagary 5y ago
        >But is it really so different if we replace race with religion? They aren't completely replacing race with religion, many Palestinians are black and my understanding is Israel is quite racist towards its black Jewish population as well. European Settler colonialism has historically been quite racist.
- sgregnt 5y ago
  I feel this is a reaction to various PA policies. In PA, there is a law that selling land to Israelis is punished by death. In Gaza, Hamas declaration of principles states that the goal of Hamas is to destroy the state of Israel.
- InitialBP 5y ago
  If you're referring to the Russia Ukraine conflict with note about sanctions I don't think we've seen indication that sanctions are an "effective means" of pushback considering the fact that the Russia continues to wage war against Ukraine.
MauroIksem 5y ago
Emigrating into your own country. That's a new one. Opinions here are laughable.
- ashwagary 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - ychnd 5y ago
    I'm new here, how do I report pro-war apologists?
    - ashwagary 5y ago
      Not pro-war, it's called history repeating itself.
      - ashwagary 5y ago
        Also you created that account in 2016 and only have one comment, this one. That's a major red flag.
- edanm 5y ago
  That's a disingenuous way of putting it. The Palestinians who stayed in Israel during the Israeli war of independence became citizens. The ones who left, did not. They were also not part of Israel for almost 30 years, they were refugees of other countries, who then attacked Israel. They have never been Israeli citizens, and were not even in Israel for many years before they became Israeli refugees. (Whether they should have been granted citizenship when the lands were annexed as part of the war, or not, is a different question)
  - chmod600 5y ago
    Honestly I'm really confused every time I try to understand Israel. Ordinary terms like citizenship, borders, immigration, and statehood are all in dispute. Then that makes it hard to define "democracy". I tried reading about the history of Palestinian nationality on wikipedia, and I have as many questions as answers. Are they Jordanian, Egyptian, Palestinian, or Israeli? Are some Palestinians stateless? What does "territory" really mean?

vkou 5y ago

It's a policy of apartheid, which is motivated by both immigration and security. Fortunately, as we have learned over the past few weeks, sanctions are an effective means of pushback against archaic 20-th century statesmanship.

spywaregorilla 5y ago
Unfortunately, geopolitics all but guarantee this will never happen so long as Israel is a strong western ally
- vkou 5y ago
  Does it have to be? Does it operate a gas pipeline that heats Germany, or something? Is it an irreplaceable source of titanium? A major wheat exporter? Is the West planning to use it as a launchpad for a war of aggression in the region?
  - bradlys 5y ago
    > Is the West planning to use it as a launchpad for a war of aggression in the region? Pretty sure this was the reason. It’s a tactical piece that they want to keep control over. Everyone else in the region hates them (and rightfully so).
    - throwaway2048 5y ago
      Considering Israel does not, and never has allowed American forces to be stationed inside Israel, this seems pretty unlikely.
      - bradlys 5y ago
        You do know you don't have to have your own troops in a specific area for it to be a tactical asset, right?
      - renewiltord 5y ago
        They will do what we want when it matters. Even better that their people die in our service than ours.
    - chmod600 5y ago
      I'm not sure quite what you mean by "rightfully hates them" but it sounds pretty scary to me.
      - skrtskrt 5y ago
        they mean the west has systematically overthrown governments, strip-mined the natural resources, drawn arbitrary country borders, funded extremist groups, bombed civilian populations, gone to war because the extremists they originally backed got too strong, etc etc in the Middle East for generations then if all else fails, they do sanctions, which of course NEVER affect the ruling class, they merely provide the rulers a tool to point more hatred at the west - you think it's the ruling class that can't get diabetes medication due to sanctions? No of course not, it's the average person.
        chmod600 5y ago
        In the comment to which I replied, "them" refers to Jewish Israelis ("Everyone else in the region hates them"). Jewish Israelis are Middle Eastern, not part of the West.
        bradlys 5y ago
        My "them" was actually a reference to the west. Jewish Israelis is a fair argument too. Both are true.
- unmole 5y ago
  It will not happen as long as there exists a strong pro-Israel lobby in the US. Israel passed on confidential US military technology to China and abstained in the Security Council resolution against Russia. That's not the behaviour of a strong ally.
  - Fatnino 5y ago
    Israel did not abstain, they voted for. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_ES-11/1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assem... Im also interested in what you construe as evidence that Israel passed US confidential anything to China.
- bell-cot 5y ago
  's/so long as Israel is a strong western ally/so long as being "insufficiently pro-Israel" makes it difficult to gain or retain elective office in most Western democracies/g'
next_xibalba 5y ago
> as we have learned over the past few weeks, sanctions are an effective means of pushback Not really. The war in Ukraine is intensifying. Russia sees the sanctions regime as an act of war. I'm not sure what the off ramp would be, and I generally support the sanctions. But I don't think your conclusions are sound. Pushback? Yes. Effective? Not so far.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
OOPMan 5y ago
As someone born and raised in South Africa that lived there until the end of 2019 I really wish people would stop comparing Israel to the old government in ZA. The Israeli government definitely does a ton of problematic stuff that is objectively awful but it's just not quite the same as what the old government in my country used to do. I am sure I will get downvoted for this, but the situation with Israel/Palestine is not quite the same as what existed in South Africa for a significant chunk of the 20th century. That doesn't mean it's a nice situation but really, I just would prefer it if people would stop trying to weld one shitty piece of history to another one to try and create this weird equivalency between the two.
- mabbo 5y ago
  Is there a better analogy to compare the situation to? Language is about communicating ideas efficiently. Apartheid is a good word for what is happening, and our response should be the same as it was in South Africa.
  - chmod600 5y ago
    My understanding is that, once you're a citizen of Israel, you have the same rights as other Israeli citizens, regardless of race or religion. Under apartheid, rights were infringed based on race.
    - mabbo 5y ago
      But is it really so different if we replace race with religion? Israel doesn't recognize people who join the religion- it's effectively based on birth just as much as race. We have a government over a people that determines the rights of each person based on who their parents were. That's the core concept that I, for one, am opposed to.
      - ashwagary 5y ago
        >But is it really so different if we replace race with religion? They aren't completely replacing race with religion, many Palestinians are black and my understanding is Israel is quite racist towards its black Jewish population as well. European Settler colonialism has historically been quite racist.
sgregnt 5y ago
I feel this is a reaction to various PA policies. In PA, there is a law that selling land to Israelis is punished by death. In Gaza, Hamas declaration of principles states that the goal of Hamas is to destroy the state of Israel.
InitialBP 5y ago
If you're referring to the Russia Ukraine conflict with note about sanctions I don't think we've seen indication that sanctions are an "effective means" of pushback considering the fact that the Russia continues to wage war against Ukraine.

MauroIksem 5y ago

Emigrating into your own country. That's a new one. Opinions here are laughable.

ashwagary 5y ago
[flagged]
- ychnd 5y ago
  I'm new here, how do I report pro-war apologists?
  - ashwagary 5y ago
    Not pro-war, it's called history repeating itself.
    - ashwagary 5y ago
      Also you created that account in 2016 and only have one comment, this one. That's a major red flag.
edanm 5y ago
That's a disingenuous way of putting it. The Palestinians who stayed in Israel during the Israeli war of independence became citizens. The ones who left, did not. They were also not part of Israel for almost 30 years, they were refugees of other countries, who then attacked Israel. They have never been Israeli citizens, and were not even in Israel for many years before they became Israeli refugees. (Whether they should have been granted citizenship when the lands were annexed as part of the war, or not, is a different question)
- chmod600 5y ago
  Honestly I'm really confused every time I try to understand Israel. Ordinary terms like citizenship, borders, immigration, and statehood are all in dispute. Then that makes it hard to define "democracy". I tried reading about the history of Palestinian nationality on wikipedia, and I have as many questions as answers. Are they Jordanian, Egyptian, Palestinian, or Israeli? Are some Palestinians stateless? What does "territory" really mean?