5 ms·

The corner of 3rd and Pine is the center of Seattle because it’s where all public transit intersects and is near the shopping district. It has had so much crim

The corner of 3rd and Pine is the center of Seattle because it’s where all public transit intersects and is near the shopping district. It has had so much crime for so long that locals call the McDonalds there “McStabby’s.” It would be great if it felt as safe there as the rest of Seattle. Not sure what the city can do to change it, though.

porknubbins 5y ago
Using extra police and keeping violent criminals in jail seems to be an option that works in large parts of the world where that is not politically unpopular. Transit hubs in almost every city I’ve been to are safer, not less safe due to the large number of witnesses.
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  They keep several vans of police officers there now. The amazon office across the street was the most-defended building in seattle. It had 2-3 security guards on every street corner and either side of the door pre-pandemic. Post-pandemic the lack of office workers in the area due to pandemic meant the pedestrians in the area changed demographics significantly recently.
- DocTomoe 5y ago
  And still, no country has prison populations as large as the US, neither in absolute numbers nor by capita. I know very respectable (and, as this may be relevant in that area: very white) coworkers who would never go to the States because they live in fear of getting in a traffic stop and accidentally getting shot. Obviously, the problem is not being "too lenient on crime".
  - zthrowaway 5y ago
    How about we reframe this to “no country has high crime rates as large as the US”. Because that’s actually the problem. Not a bunch of people being in prison. What would you prefer we do with people that want to commit crime? Not lock them up? Because that’s what is causing all big cities to turn into catch and release garbage pits.
    - DocTomoe 5y ago
      Actually, crime rate in the US is not even in the top 10 - they are in position 58. Sweden has more crime than the US. [1] Most people who are engaged in criminal behaviour do not "want to commit crime". They are put into an environment that makes crime seem worth it. So, how to civilise the US: 1. Raise emphasis and funding on schools and education. 2. Have a mandatory year of service (may be conscription/may be US peace corps) to build a sense of belonging and society - for everyone. Mix people randomly. 3. Legalise most (all?) substances - and make purchasing them safe and easy. Defund crime cartels, also eliminate a lot of associated crime. Maybe extend that to other areas which traditionally support organised crime (looking at you, prostitution) 4. Crack down on glorifying violent behaviour in media. Think movies, games, but also gangster rap here. Underprivileged early-teen kid keeps listening about some guy who wears gold chains, caps some other folks and gets all the girls? No wonder he's going to be interested in signing up for the next gang. 5. Enact some meaningful social reforms to lower the Gini coefficient. This starts with an universal healthcare system, but does not end with housing. 6. Reestablish a system of psychiatric clinics. Many people who are in prison should actually be in a psychiatry. 7. Lower the prison population - prisons are universities for crime. If you are in prison in the US, you'll eventually become part of a prison gang, guess what: that's for life - when you and your friend are out, you're not going to build a cabin in Alaska, you're going to do crime. Less people in prison means less networking and less follow-up crime. 8. Make plea bargains illegal. They are extortion tactics that make people admit to stuff they may not even have done. If an attorney is certain he can nail you down, he won't use them anyways. 9. Stop electing state attorneys, sheriffs or judges - make them public officials with a standard paycheque and a minimum education level in law. 10. Law Enforcement Officers should have a three-year apprentice period where they learn about deescalation, proper firearm techniques, the law and criminology. 11. Change the prison system to focus on reintegration into society instead of punishment. 12. Start meaningful programs to lower gun ownership, especially in inner city environments. 13. Take powers away from town councils and move it to the state or federal level - this includes tax collection and spending. Doing so, you will avoid NIMBYist decisions that defunds the places of undesirables, making their areas even less desirable. 14. Avoid gerrymandering by using a fairer, ideally mathematical method to assign districts. 15. career politicians are now banned from having sources of income outside their activity as a politician (some leeway can be made for family-run businesses they have owned prior to getting elected). No politician will earn more than the median of the constituents they represent. Punishment for overstepping this or corruption will be harsh. The US is obviously following the wrong path. To get back to normal standards, it should be obvious they need something different, not more of the same. [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rat...
  - captainredbeard 5y ago
    > And still, no country has prison populations as large as the US Is that based on an apples-to-apples demographics profile?
    - t-writescode 5y ago
      Is this a racist question?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - pjdemers 5y ago
    Because the US locks people up for decades for drug offense that may not even be felonies in other countries.
GauntletWizard 5y ago
McStabbys shut down after the spate of crimes. It got bad enough at that corner that a restaurant that was (correctly) nicknamed McStabbys was shut down.
toast0 5y ago
> It would be great if it felt as safe there as the rest of Seattle. Not sure what the city can do to change it, though. Well, there's some other sketchy parts, but it'd be a shame if the whole city felt as sketchy as 3rd and Pine.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
I worked at McStabby’s in 1994. Most of my coworkers were street smart Filipinos (and a few Pacific Islanders and Vietnamese), it was actually a lot of fun working with them. But we had our window broken by the night crowd every week or so, after 7PM half our customers had the unshowered and/or drunk smell. Always an off duty cop at the store also.
- davidjytang 5y ago
  If I remember correctly, by 2004, you would have to show a uniform cop your order receipt before allowed using McStabby's toilet.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    In 1994, the bathrooms were still open, and cleaning the bathroom was the worst job you could be assigned.

porknubbins 5y ago

Using extra police and keeping violent criminals in jail seems to be an option that works in large parts of the world where that is not politically unpopular. Transit hubs in almost every city I’ve been to are safer, not less safe due to the large number of witnesses.

vineyardmike 5y ago
They keep several vans of police officers there now. The amazon office across the street was the most-defended building in seattle. It had 2-3 security guards on every street corner and either side of the door pre-pandemic. Post-pandemic the lack of office workers in the area due to pandemic meant the pedestrians in the area changed demographics significantly recently.
DocTomoe 5y ago
And still, no country has prison populations as large as the US, neither in absolute numbers nor by capita. I know very respectable (and, as this may be relevant in that area: very white) coworkers who would never go to the States because they live in fear of getting in a traffic stop and accidentally getting shot. Obviously, the problem is not being "too lenient on crime".
- zthrowaway 5y ago
  How about we reframe this to “no country has high crime rates as large as the US”. Because that’s actually the problem. Not a bunch of people being in prison. What would you prefer we do with people that want to commit crime? Not lock them up? Because that’s what is causing all big cities to turn into catch and release garbage pits.
  - DocTomoe 5y ago
    Actually, crime rate in the US is not even in the top 10 - they are in position 58. Sweden has more crime than the US. [1] Most people who are engaged in criminal behaviour do not "want to commit crime". They are put into an environment that makes crime seem worth it. So, how to civilise the US: 1. Raise emphasis and funding on schools and education. 2. Have a mandatory year of service (may be conscription/may be US peace corps) to build a sense of belonging and society - for everyone. Mix people randomly. 3. Legalise most (all?) substances - and make purchasing them safe and easy. Defund crime cartels, also eliminate a lot of associated crime. Maybe extend that to other areas which traditionally support organised crime (looking at you, prostitution) 4. Crack down on glorifying violent behaviour in media. Think movies, games, but also gangster rap here. Underprivileged early-teen kid keeps listening about some guy who wears gold chains, caps some other folks and gets all the girls? No wonder he's going to be interested in signing up for the next gang. 5. Enact some meaningful social reforms to lower the Gini coefficient. This starts with an universal healthcare system, but does not end with housing. 6. Reestablish a system of psychiatric clinics. Many people who are in prison should actually be in a psychiatry. 7. Lower the prison population - prisons are universities for crime. If you are in prison in the US, you'll eventually become part of a prison gang, guess what: that's for life - when you and your friend are out, you're not going to build a cabin in Alaska, you're going to do crime. Less people in prison means less networking and less follow-up crime. 8. Make plea bargains illegal. They are extortion tactics that make people admit to stuff they may not even have done. If an attorney is certain he can nail you down, he won't use them anyways. 9. Stop electing state attorneys, sheriffs or judges - make them public officials with a standard paycheque and a minimum education level in law. 10. Law Enforcement Officers should have a three-year apprentice period where they learn about deescalation, proper firearm techniques, the law and criminology. 11. Change the prison system to focus on reintegration into society instead of punishment. 12. Start meaningful programs to lower gun ownership, especially in inner city environments. 13. Take powers away from town councils and move it to the state or federal level - this includes tax collection and spending. Doing so, you will avoid NIMBYist decisions that defunds the places of undesirables, making their areas even less desirable. 14. Avoid gerrymandering by using a fairer, ideally mathematical method to assign districts. 15. career politicians are now banned from having sources of income outside their activity as a politician (some leeway can be made for family-run businesses they have owned prior to getting elected). No politician will earn more than the median of the constituents they represent. Punishment for overstepping this or corruption will be harsh. The US is obviously following the wrong path. To get back to normal standards, it should be obvious they need something different, not more of the same. [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rat...
- captainredbeard 5y ago
  > And still, no country has prison populations as large as the US Is that based on an apples-to-apples demographics profile?
  - t-writescode 5y ago
    Is this a racist question?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- pjdemers 5y ago
  Because the US locks people up for decades for drug offense that may not even be felonies in other countries.

GauntletWizard 5y ago

McStabbys shut down after the spate of crimes. It got bad enough at that corner that a restaurant that was (correctly) nicknamed McStabbys was shut down.

toast0 5y ago

> It would be great if it felt as safe there as the rest of Seattle. Not sure what the city can do to change it, though. Well, there's some other sketchy parts, but it'd be a shame if the whole city felt as sketchy as 3rd and Pine.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

I worked at McStabby’s in 1994. Most of my coworkers were street smart Filipinos (and a few Pacific Islanders and Vietnamese), it was actually a lot of fun working with them. But we had our window broken by the night crowd every week or so, after 7PM half our customers had the unshowered and/or drunk smell. Always an off duty cop at the store also.

davidjytang 5y ago
If I remember correctly, by 2004, you would have to show a uniform cop your order receipt before allowed using McStabby's toilet.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  In 1994, the bathrooms were still open, and cleaning the bathroom was the worst job you could be assigned.