6 ms·

War makes unlikely alliances. If you're fighting for the existence of your country you're not going to say no to the help of nazis. And if you're using the bigg

War makes unlikely alliances. If you're fighting for the existence of your country you're not going to say no to the help of nazis. And if you're using the biggest social media platform on the planet to organize that war, you're going to want your allies on it. What you've just discovered is that a unified policy across the entire world isn't actually the right policy. In one country you may want to ban some stuff you wouldn't ban in another one.

nradov 5y ago
How should Facebook adjust policies on a country by country basis? Should Facebook ban content on homosexuality or marijuana use in countries where those things are illegal?
- lupire 5y ago
  Of course they do.
- verve_rat 5y ago
  Yeah, probably. You might not like it, but if you want to do business in a country, you generally need to follow their laws. That's how this shit works. Don't like it? Don't do business there.
cato_the_elder 5y ago
> War makes unlikely alliances. That is certainly true. There are many examples of that. Israel provided weapons and advisers to Iran during the Iran-Iraq war. They even bombed an Iraqi nuclear reactor for them. [1] A more widely known example is the alliance between US and the Soviets during the WW2. > What you've just discovered is that a unified policy across the entire world isn't actually the right policy. I disagree with that. The ideal "public square" platforms should be neutral. The best policy (which I think will work in almost all cases for general platforms like FB) is to stick to supporting free expression as much as the law permits, don't manipulate people's feeds, and develop tools to let people filter out the content they don't want to see. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%27s_role_in_the_Iran–Iraq_war https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%27s_role_in_the_Iran–...
- sofixa 5y ago
  But the laws are different in different countries ( duh!). Antisemitism isn't illegal in the US, but is an actual crime in France just to give one example.
  - cato_the_elder 5y ago
    Right, that's a contentious area. The extent of jurisdiction of e.g. France over FB seems very nebulous to me. And even then, I'm sure they have a court process to determine who's guilty of "hate speech" (or thoughtcrime or whatever), and FB is capable of challenging the cases or complying with the rulings for French residents. I assume blanket prior restraint is frowned upon in freer countries of the world. There are efforts to pass Draconian laws to limit free expression online though [1]. [1]: e.g. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/18/world/europe/france-internet-hate-speech-regulation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/18/world/europe/france-inter...
mardifoufs 5y ago
I just hope no one ever uses the catchy rule of thumb that"if 9 people sit around a table with 1 nazi, there are 10 nazis around that table" again seriously after this haha. It's that not even 1 month ago if one person at a protest had a nazi flag everyone protesting there was also labeled a nazi. But you got NATO publicly glorifying soldiers with literal nazi insignia (the black sun) and that's just being the good guys now. https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-soldiers-apparent-nazi-symbol-tweet-1686523 https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-s...
- cafard 5y ago
  Was Russia invading that protest at the time?
  - mardifoufs 5y ago
    Does that matter? So national socialist groups are okay in times of war? Associating with Neonazi groups is suddenly fine when they are fighting on the side you cheer for? Fuck the russian government and their war of aggression, unequivocally. Ive lost a distant friend in syria during The russian government's intervention there, and some of my current refugee friends lost their homes to their bombs. So yes I have no love for putins regime. But can we please stop making excuses for literal nazis ? It's so weird to basically normalize or even encourage such groups because you don't want to agree with anything russia says. Those groups have been growing for the past 2 weeks because of that completely passive attitude where no one wants to be criticizing "our team". They can openly wear insignia designed by Himmler in front of cameras and still be praised by NATO. I think we should realize that this is not a marvel movie with a clear good vs bad plot. So there's nothing wrong with admitting there is a huge far right problem and still be against the invasion. The "good side" can be criticized without support the "evil side" For the past few years I've been hearing that we can focus on more than a single issue at the time, so why not do that? Because wow this completely insane 180° on far right groups in a mere 2 weeks really really make the craze around anti fascism and nazism accusations in the past 5 years look like complete poltical theater. At this point I won't even be surprised if we start justifying actual war crimes if the Good side does it.
keewee7 5y ago
>War makes unlikely alliances. If you're fighting for the existence of your country you're not going to say no to the help of nazis. Well said. When Nazi Germany occupied Denmark it was a far-right conservative Danish resistance movement that helped Danish Jews flee to Sweden.
- ashwagary 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - ABoredBirb 5y ago
    Where in the hell are you getting 10% from? Ukraine has a multi-party government and their neo-nazis don't have even a single seat in their rather large parliament.
    - ashwagary 5y ago
      My 8-10% figure is quite conservative when compared with recent polling data. The Neo-Nazi movements are popular enough that Zelenskyy had to walk back his anti-Banderite rhetoric that was a decent part of his comedic act pre-2015-ish (I have only seen a few of his comedic specials from before that year so this timeframe is a rough guess). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera#Attitudes_in_Ukraine_towards_Bandera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera#Attitudes_in_Uk... >A poll conducted in early May 2021 by the Democratic Initiatives Foundation together with the Razumkov Centre's sociological service showed that 32% of citizens consider Stepan Bandera's activity as a historical figure to be positive for Ukraine, as many consider his activity negative; another 21% consider Bandera's activities as positive as they are negative. According to the poll, a positive attitude prevails in the western region of Ukraine (70%); in the central region of the state, 27% of respondents consider his activity positive, 27% consider his activity negative and 27% consider his activity both positive and negative; negative attitude prevails in the southern and eastern regions of Ukraine (54% and 48% of respondents consider his activity negative for Ukraine, respectively). >Monuments dedicated to Stepan Bandera have been constructured in a number of western Ukrainian cities, including a statue in Lviv, as well as Staryi Uhryniv, Kolomyia, Drohobych, Zalishchyky, Mykytyntsi, Uzyn, Buchach, Hrabivka, Horodenka, Staryi Sambir, Ternopil, Ivano-Frankivsk, Strusiv, Truskavets, Horishniy, Velykosilky, Sambir, Velyki Mosty, Skole, Turka, Zdolbuniv,Chortkiv, Sniatyn, and in such cities and villages as Berezhany, Boryslav, Chervonohrad, Dubliany, Kamianka-Buzka, Kremenets, Mostyska, Pidvolochysk, Seredniy Bereziv, Terebovlia, Verbiv, and Volia-Zaderevatska. >In 2010 and 2011, Bandera was named an honorary citizen of a number of western Ukrainian cities, including Khust,Nadvirna, Ternopil, Ivano-Frankivsk, Lviv, Kolomyia, Dolyna,Varash, Lutsk, Chervonohrad, Terebovlia, Truskavets, Radekhiv, Sokal,Stebnyk, Zhovkva,Skole, Berezhany, Sambir,Boryslav, Brody, Stryi, and Morshyn.
lupire 5y ago
Ukraine's war is literally a dispute about what one country's policy should be.

nradov 5y ago

How should Facebook adjust policies on a country by country basis? Should Facebook ban content on homosexuality or marijuana use in countries where those things are illegal?

lupire 5y ago
Of course they do.
verve_rat 5y ago
Yeah, probably. You might not like it, but if you want to do business in a country, you generally need to follow their laws. That's how this shit works. Don't like it? Don't do business there.

cato_the_elder 5y ago

> War makes unlikely alliances. That is certainly true. There are many examples of that. Israel provided weapons and advisers to Iran during the Iran-Iraq war. They even bombed an Iraqi nuclear reactor for them. [1] A more widely known example is the alliance between US and the Soviets during the WW2. > What you've just discovered is that a unified policy across the entire world isn't actually the right policy. I disagree with that. The ideal "public square" platforms should be neutral. The best policy (which I think will work in almost all cases for general platforms like FB) is to stick to supporting free expression as much as the law permits, don't manipulate people's feeds, and develop tools to let people filter out the content they don't want to see. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%27s_role_in_the_Iran–Iraq_war https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%27s_role_in_the_Iran–...

sofixa 5y ago
But the laws are different in different countries ( duh!). Antisemitism isn't illegal in the US, but is an actual crime in France just to give one example.
- cato_the_elder 5y ago
  Right, that's a contentious area. The extent of jurisdiction of e.g. France over FB seems very nebulous to me. And even then, I'm sure they have a court process to determine who's guilty of "hate speech" (or thoughtcrime or whatever), and FB is capable of challenging the cases or complying with the rulings for French residents. I assume blanket prior restraint is frowned upon in freer countries of the world. There are efforts to pass Draconian laws to limit free expression online though [1]. [1]: e.g. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/18/world/europe/france-internet-hate-speech-regulation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/18/world/europe/france-inter...

mardifoufs 5y ago

I just hope no one ever uses the catchy rule of thumb that"if 9 people sit around a table with 1 nazi, there are 10 nazis around that table" again seriously after this haha. It's that not even 1 month ago if one person at a protest had a nazi flag everyone protesting there was also labeled a nazi. But you got NATO publicly glorifying soldiers with literal nazi insignia (the black sun) and that's just being the good guys now. https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-soldiers-apparent-nazi-symbol-tweet-1686523 https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-s...

cafard 5y ago
Was Russia invading that protest at the time?
- mardifoufs 5y ago
  Does that matter? So national socialist groups are okay in times of war? Associating with Neonazi groups is suddenly fine when they are fighting on the side you cheer for? Fuck the russian government and their war of aggression, unequivocally. Ive lost a distant friend in syria during The russian government's intervention there, and some of my current refugee friends lost their homes to their bombs. So yes I have no love for putins regime. But can we please stop making excuses for literal nazis ? It's so weird to basically normalize or even encourage such groups because you don't want to agree with anything russia says. Those groups have been growing for the past 2 weeks because of that completely passive attitude where no one wants to be criticizing "our team". They can openly wear insignia designed by Himmler in front of cameras and still be praised by NATO. I think we should realize that this is not a marvel movie with a clear good vs bad plot. So there's nothing wrong with admitting there is a huge far right problem and still be against the invasion. The "good side" can be criticized without support the "evil side" For the past few years I've been hearing that we can focus on more than a single issue at the time, so why not do that? Because wow this completely insane 180° on far right groups in a mere 2 weeks really really make the craze around anti fascism and nazism accusations in the past 5 years look like complete poltical theater. At this point I won't even be surprised if we start justifying actual war crimes if the Good side does it.

keewee7 5y ago

>War makes unlikely alliances. If you're fighting for the existence of your country you're not going to say no to the help of nazis. Well said. When Nazi Germany occupied Denmark it was a far-right conservative Danish resistance movement that helped Danish Jews flee to Sweden.

ashwagary 5y ago
[flagged]
- ABoredBirb 5y ago
  Where in the hell are you getting 10% from? Ukraine has a multi-party government and their neo-nazis don't have even a single seat in their rather large parliament.
  - ashwagary 5y ago
    My 8-10% figure is quite conservative when compared with recent polling data. The Neo-Nazi movements are popular enough that Zelenskyy had to walk back his anti-Banderite rhetoric that was a decent part of his comedic act pre-2015-ish (I have only seen a few of his comedic specials from before that year so this timeframe is a rough guess). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera#Attitudes_in_Ukraine_towards_Bandera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera#Attitudes_in_Uk... >A poll conducted in early May 2021 by the Democratic Initiatives Foundation together with the Razumkov Centre's sociological service showed that 32% of citizens consider Stepan Bandera's activity as a historical figure to be positive for Ukraine, as many consider his activity negative; another 21% consider Bandera's activities as positive as they are negative. According to the poll, a positive attitude prevails in the western region of Ukraine (70%); in the central region of the state, 27% of respondents consider his activity positive, 27% consider his activity negative and 27% consider his activity both positive and negative; negative attitude prevails in the southern and eastern regions of Ukraine (54% and 48% of respondents consider his activity negative for Ukraine, respectively). >Monuments dedicated to Stepan Bandera have been constructured in a number of western Ukrainian cities, including a statue in Lviv, as well as Staryi Uhryniv, Kolomyia, Drohobych, Zalishchyky, Mykytyntsi, Uzyn, Buchach, Hrabivka, Horodenka, Staryi Sambir, Ternopil, Ivano-Frankivsk, Strusiv, Truskavets, Horishniy, Velykosilky, Sambir, Velyki Mosty, Skole, Turka, Zdolbuniv,Chortkiv, Sniatyn, and in such cities and villages as Berezhany, Boryslav, Chervonohrad, Dubliany, Kamianka-Buzka, Kremenets, Mostyska, Pidvolochysk, Seredniy Bereziv, Terebovlia, Verbiv, and Volia-Zaderevatska. >In 2010 and 2011, Bandera was named an honorary citizen of a number of western Ukrainian cities, including Khust,Nadvirna, Ternopil, Ivano-Frankivsk, Lviv, Kolomyia, Dolyna,Varash, Lutsk, Chervonohrad, Terebovlia, Truskavets, Radekhiv, Sokal,Stebnyk, Zhovkva,Skole, Berezhany, Sambir,Boryslav, Brody, Stryi, and Morshyn.

lupire 5y ago

Ukraine's war is literally a dispute about what one country's policy should be.