6 ms·

DARPA developing new cognitive science tool to identify those at risk of suicide

31 points by hdivider 5y ago

JasonFruit 5y ago
"If it saves even one life, it will be worth it!" Even if it means preemptive curtailment of their liberty, privacy, and choice, whether or not they would actually have committed suicide if left unmolested.
voakbasda 5y ago
A society that criminalizes suicide is a society that keeps its citizens as slaves.
Impassionata 5y ago
oneplane 5y ago
But then what? Ditch the people to avoid responsibility? Jail them to prevent suicide? (and with that, avoid responsibility) Or actually get to the root cause and fix that, even if the root cause is society in one way or another...?
- jimbob45 5y ago
  Ideally you use the predictive technology to enhance and check the work of humans. In reality, I agree that people usually just get ditched in favor of the technology that works most of the time...but not all (self-driving comes to mind).
- chomp 5y ago
  Military readiness is organizing and preparing the military for success in the field. If members are unwell, then they need to be identified, and then treated. Suicides are a big problem affecting unit readiness at the moment, as depression not only lowers the effectiveness of individual people, but the suicide also affects unit morale. Not everyone is comfortable with seeking help, especially in the armed forces (due to a variety of reasons such as culture), so if there are more tools to visibly see these issues (like we would with standard medical issues), then that makes it much easier to open up dialogue with our soldiers, and begin treatment.
  - oneplane 5y ago
    But if the culture makes it hard, technology is hardly going to fix that, right? Culture is a human problem, not a technology problem. Technology is just a tool, and perhaps a force multiplier, but a change in culture?
    - SllX 5y ago
      Correct; but that doesn’t mean there isn’t any utility in new technology for improving our culture so long as the people using it want to do so.
    - kelseyfrog 5y ago
      That's where the real fun of it lies. Imagine you have at your disposal every tool to modify individual behavior, but no tools to modify social systems? What second-order effects result from solely relying on individual interventions? If there are ways that make people feel ok with the soul-crushing weight to social ills, is it right to employ them?
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    > Not everyone is comfortable with seeking help, especially in the armed forces (due to a variety of reasons such as culture), so if there are more tools to visibly see these issues (like we would with standard medical issues), then that makes it much easier to open up dialogue with our soldiers, and begin treatment. And once again, we're seeing technology being attempted to use as a band-aid instead of fixing the actual problems - the culture of toxic masculinity that is not just in the mindset of the soldiers but also in almost all advertisements, the fact that many seek to join the military not out of their own will (e.g. to defend the homeland) but to escape poverty, or the fact that many get sent to the military by their parents either because of "tradition" or because they are seen as "rebellious" and the military should "fix them". Humans aren't cogs in a machine, and projects such as this are only one thing: another layer to make sure the cogs perform as required. Dehumanizing.
    - chomp 5y ago
      So, I disagree that this is a band-aid, because you can be depressed without realizing it. War is brutal, and people are subjected to a wide range of emotions that can manifest consciously or subconsciously, so some people in-tune with their thoughts may have issues without realizing it. However, with regards to the rest of your comment, there is a population that sees toxic masculinity as just traits of normal masculinity, with all of the problems that comes with. The fixing of actual ingrained cultural issues is a culture war that only recently picked up, and is not going to resolve anytime soon. Meanwhile, there are people that are suffering who do not understand that their (to them) desirable identity traits are causing them harm, and potentially do not understand that they are going though depression. I do agree that it is depressing that soldiers are treated as fungible, but mental health is probably the only place where you're going to see humanity injected into the armed forces.
zwkrt 5y ago
I can imagine the dystopian sci-fi work now, of someone who has been tagged in the governmental credit check system as being 'at risk of suicide'. They are systematically denied access, othered, and subtly offered help for mental health problems (which they did not perceive themselves as having previously before being suggested) causing them to be pushed to the edge of sanity.
- aserdf 5y ago
  worse yet - that individual has incurred healthcare costs at a greater rate than their "peer group" and the nudges turn away from mental health assistance to subtle suicide encouragement for the "common good" (lowering aggregate healthcare costs).
- jcadam 5y ago
  Or you find yourself repeatedly thrown in the looney bin for a 72 hour suicide watch. And sent the bill (see Baker Act and other constitutionally-dubious state laws).
- Wiseacre 5y ago
  The inability to hold down a job is a very common symptom of mental illness. In other words, it is no secret that your mental health hinges on whether or not you contribute to the economy.
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    I think you may have causality backwards there. Its more likely that people with mental health issues have problems functioning in the usual work environment, they don't mesh and have trouble keeping the job because of it.
  - zwkrt 5y ago
    Well I do fully believe that for most people their sense of self worth hinges on having responsibilities and a regular schedule, but that can mean being a mother, volunteering on a regular basis, being a part of your retirement community's bingo club, or whatever else. But what is also true is that losing your job can be a precipitous plunge into mental illness, as your outside world that was regularly structured turns to chaos suddenly. And of course, if your external world becomes chaotic, your internal world is liable to be chaotic as well--'as above, so below' and all that.
79843758 5y ago
That's horrifying.
giantg2 5y ago
As along as identifying them as at-risk doesn't equate to labeling/condemning them as at-risk or suicidal without protections and more traditional steps/measures (not that those are fool proof either).
cf141q5325 5y ago
As likely to be used for suicide prevention in the end as older drone projects were for "delivering aid during disaster scenarios" with the required capability to identify individuals. I would say the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but it turns out giving research some transparent lie to tell themselves is more then enough.
- kube-system 5y ago
  Maybe not for directly delivering aid, but drones have been pretty successful in being useful for search/rescue/mapping disaster areas. Sometimes technology isn't immediately useful in the exact way we think it will be. Sent from my DARPA nuclear-war tolerant communication terminal.
- wnkrshm 5y ago
  You mean like using the tool to systematically identify the small changes in suicide likelihood due to parameter variation of a subject's interactions/environment and then maximizing the likelihood? A suicide inductor.
  - cf141q5325 5y ago
    For example. Or more likely just not just searching for suicide indicators >but, rather, on aggregating preconscious brain signals to determine what someone believes to be true. The screening process envisioned could involve presenting various statement stimuli of behavioral health relevance, such as biographical information, actions, or intentions (e.g., I want to end my life/enjoy my life) to measure preconscious responses. NEAT would triangulate responses to aggregate evidence and determine if the person reading the stimuli statements believes they are true, false, or indeterminate. Wanna bet that it will very quickly be used for detecting other things the governments deems "unwell". Resulting in another kind of "help". The Simpsons clip sprang to mind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO0-mofj9EY&t=3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO0-mofj9EY&t=3s It is yet another targeting algorithm that has suicide prevent as one very easily replaceable scenario.
- jodrellblank 5y ago
newaccount2021 5y ago
Starlevel001 5y ago
Now this cuts out the annoying governmental process of having to find your future suicide bombers. You can just look them up in a database and assign an agent immediately!
- kahrl 5y ago
  This 2022 remake of Minority Report is really a snooze.
bumby 5y ago
If I'm understanding this correctly, it essentially tries to tell if someone agrees with a statement ("I want to end my life") by looking at "preconscious" brain signals, regardless of what the interviewee answers consciously. So is it like an MRI for lie detectors? I wonder how it compares to the faults of traditional lie detectors. Besides the weird "precog" minority report vibes, it makes for an interesting validation problem.
jrapdx3 5y ago
From the brief overview provided by DARPA it's not entirely clear what methods or system is envisioned to do the "preconscious" screening. Presumably some kind of measurement of brain waves, but that seems way ahead of where the science is at. In any case I wonder if this approach is really the right target. It's true, the suicide rate in military (active duty and veteran) is tragic, but also elevated in the general population. I'd venture a guess that the issue with suicide reflects a tremendous stigma attached to behavioral disorders such that sufferers are dissuaded from seeking evaluation and treatment until conditions reach disabling proportions or maybe not even then. I have serious doubt that technological methodologies alone will be an adequate solution. Of course it's possible that new tools will move the ball downfield and play a role in extinguishing long-standing prejudices but it remains to be seen if that will happen.
- bumby 5y ago
  I hate to be a cynic, but my feeling is that it's more applicable to lie detection and the suicide prevention is a good application (but probably far from the main goal). Cut out all the suicide-specific wording, and it sounds like generic lie detection that military or law enforcement would have a lot of interest in. "The screening process envisioned could involve presenting various statement stimuli...or intentions (e.g., I want to [do this bad thing]) to measure preconscious responses. "
- zigzaggy 5y ago
  My personal opinion (backed up with a certain amount of experience) is that much of these suicides are due to a soldier being traumatized, then coming home to try to cope with trauma responses. Some then turn to drowning the trauma with alcohol and other bad stuff. That's when the spiral really accelerates. Unfortunately the stigma you mentioned feels so much worse when someone also hates themselves. They don't recognize the stigma for what it is and start believing they don't deserve to get better. And yes this seems to be a huge problem across humanity. Overdoses and suicides are at historically high levels. And celebrities with tremendous resources still suffer the same way. Which tells me the technology just isn't there.
  - 5y ago
_8j50 5y ago
Ugh.. that's none of their damn business? If a person needs help they can reach out and you can make remove any barriers preventing them but having your mental disorder identified against your will sounds horrific. Ends don't justify means!
- cscurmudgeon 5y ago
  Where does it say it will be against someone’s will?
  - _8j50 5y ago
    > ...since patients will often tell their clinicians what they think the clinician wants to hear rather than how they are truly feeling Right in the article. The idea is to find out medical information patients aren't willing to share with their physician.
    - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
      > The idea is to find out medical information patients aren't willing to share with their physician. Plenty of routine medical tests already do that.
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  *sigh* HN comments are entirely predictable. Tools that help understand and detect suicidal behaviour could also help refine an understanding that people can use to spot potentially pre-suicidal behaviour in the people they love. You know that suicidal people often don't, can't or won't reach out for help at all, right? And may in the days before their suicide appear to be dramatically better, serene, even peaceful? There are likely other common patterns of pre-suicidal behaviour (unusual secrecy for example), and a tool that can help clarify what the reliable indicators are, really might stop people killing themselves. We want this, don't we? In DARPA's case, if those people are in the service, it is their damn business; they have a duty of care. Away from DARPA, better processes might have stopped a horrific airline disaster in recent years. There are some people in highly significant, routinely stressful roles who are regularly psych-screened anyway. Those screenings need better tools to be more useful.
api 5y ago
DARPA (war department) works on life-saving applications of AI, while private social media works on addictive engagement algorithms to make people miserable and enslave them to dopamine loops. This strike anyone as a bit off?
after_care 5y ago
This is such a moonshot. Right now, give all warning signs we know if, if you could identified the 100 most likely people in America to attempt suicide in the next 24 hours that haven’t had a previous suicide attempt or previously announced intentions of self harming you might successfully identify 5 people. Answering the question “who will attempt suicide” is a lot like “who will have a fatal car accident “. There’s a handful of obvious warning signs (drunk drivers), but even those aren’t strong enough to allow any certainty.
- polski-g 5y ago
  Suicidality is 47% heritable. So just get the blood of people who have committed suicide & do some GWAS studies. Then you can look for predictive genetic markers in 23andme data.

31 points by hdivider 5y ago

"If it saves even one life, it will be worth it!" Even if it means preemptive curtailment of their liberty, privacy, and choice, whether or not they would actually have committed suicide if left unmolested.

voakbasda 5y ago

A society that criminalizes suicide is a society that keeps its citizens as slaves.

Impassionata 5y ago

oneplane 5y ago

But then what? Ditch the people to avoid responsibility? Jail them to prevent suicide? (and with that, avoid responsibility) Or actually get to the root cause and fix that, even if the root cause is society in one way or another...?

jimbob45 5y ago
Ideally you use the predictive technology to enhance and check the work of humans. In reality, I agree that people usually just get ditched in favor of the technology that works most of the time...but not all (self-driving comes to mind).
chomp 5y ago
Military readiness is organizing and preparing the military for success in the field. If members are unwell, then they need to be identified, and then treated. Suicides are a big problem affecting unit readiness at the moment, as depression not only lowers the effectiveness of individual people, but the suicide also affects unit morale. Not everyone is comfortable with seeking help, especially in the armed forces (due to a variety of reasons such as culture), so if there are more tools to visibly see these issues (like we would with standard medical issues), then that makes it much easier to open up dialogue with our soldiers, and begin treatment.
- oneplane 5y ago
  But if the culture makes it hard, technology is hardly going to fix that, right? Culture is a human problem, not a technology problem. Technology is just a tool, and perhaps a force multiplier, but a change in culture?
  - SllX 5y ago
    Correct; but that doesn’t mean there isn’t any utility in new technology for improving our culture so long as the people using it want to do so.
  - kelseyfrog 5y ago
    That's where the real fun of it lies. Imagine you have at your disposal every tool to modify individual behavior, but no tools to modify social systems? What second-order effects result from solely relying on individual interventions? If there are ways that make people feel ok with the soul-crushing weight to social ills, is it right to employ them?
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > Not everyone is comfortable with seeking help, especially in the armed forces (due to a variety of reasons such as culture), so if there are more tools to visibly see these issues (like we would with standard medical issues), then that makes it much easier to open up dialogue with our soldiers, and begin treatment. And once again, we're seeing technology being attempted to use as a band-aid instead of fixing the actual problems - the culture of toxic masculinity that is not just in the mindset of the soldiers but also in almost all advertisements, the fact that many seek to join the military not out of their own will (e.g. to defend the homeland) but to escape poverty, or the fact that many get sent to the military by their parents either because of "tradition" or because they are seen as "rebellious" and the military should "fix them". Humans aren't cogs in a machine, and projects such as this are only one thing: another layer to make sure the cogs perform as required. Dehumanizing.
  - chomp 5y ago
    So, I disagree that this is a band-aid, because you can be depressed without realizing it. War is brutal, and people are subjected to a wide range of emotions that can manifest consciously or subconsciously, so some people in-tune with their thoughts may have issues without realizing it. However, with regards to the rest of your comment, there is a population that sees toxic masculinity as just traits of normal masculinity, with all of the problems that comes with. The fixing of actual ingrained cultural issues is a culture war that only recently picked up, and is not going to resolve anytime soon. Meanwhile, there are people that are suffering who do not understand that their (to them) desirable identity traits are causing them harm, and potentially do not understand that they are going though depression. I do agree that it is depressing that soldiers are treated as fungible, but mental health is probably the only place where you're going to see humanity injected into the armed forces.

zwkrt 5y ago

I can imagine the dystopian sci-fi work now, of someone who has been tagged in the governmental credit check system as being 'at risk of suicide'. They are systematically denied access, othered, and subtly offered help for mental health problems (which they did not perceive themselves as having previously before being suggested) causing them to be pushed to the edge of sanity.

aserdf 5y ago
worse yet - that individual has incurred healthcare costs at a greater rate than their "peer group" and the nudges turn away from mental health assistance to subtle suicide encouragement for the "common good" (lowering aggregate healthcare costs).
jcadam 5y ago
Or you find yourself repeatedly thrown in the looney bin for a 72 hour suicide watch. And sent the bill (see Baker Act and other constitutionally-dubious state laws).
Wiseacre 5y ago
The inability to hold down a job is a very common symptom of mental illness. In other words, it is no secret that your mental health hinges on whether or not you contribute to the economy.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  I think you may have causality backwards there. Its more likely that people with mental health issues have problems functioning in the usual work environment, they don't mesh and have trouble keeping the job because of it.
- zwkrt 5y ago
  Well I do fully believe that for most people their sense of self worth hinges on having responsibilities and a regular schedule, but that can mean being a mother, volunteering on a regular basis, being a part of your retirement community's bingo club, or whatever else. But what is also true is that losing your job can be a precipitous plunge into mental illness, as your outside world that was regularly structured turns to chaos suddenly. And of course, if your external world becomes chaotic, your internal world is liable to be chaotic as well--'as above, so below' and all that.

79843758 5y ago

That's horrifying.

giantg2 5y ago

As along as identifying them as at-risk doesn't equate to labeling/condemning them as at-risk or suicidal without protections and more traditional steps/measures (not that those are fool proof either).

cf141q5325 5y ago

As likely to be used for suicide prevention in the end as older drone projects were for "delivering aid during disaster scenarios" with the required capability to identify individuals. I would say the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but it turns out giving research some transparent lie to tell themselves is more then enough.

kube-system 5y ago
Maybe not for directly delivering aid, but drones have been pretty successful in being useful for search/rescue/mapping disaster areas. Sometimes technology isn't immediately useful in the exact way we think it will be. Sent from my DARPA nuclear-war tolerant communication terminal.
wnkrshm 5y ago
You mean like using the tool to systematically identify the small changes in suicide likelihood due to parameter variation of a subject's interactions/environment and then maximizing the likelihood? A suicide inductor.
- cf141q5325 5y ago
  For example. Or more likely just not just searching for suicide indicators >but, rather, on aggregating preconscious brain signals to determine what someone believes to be true. The screening process envisioned could involve presenting various statement stimuli of behavioral health relevance, such as biographical information, actions, or intentions (e.g., I want to end my life/enjoy my life) to measure preconscious responses. NEAT would triangulate responses to aggregate evidence and determine if the person reading the stimuli statements believes they are true, false, or indeterminate. Wanna bet that it will very quickly be used for detecting other things the governments deems "unwell". Resulting in another kind of "help". The Simpsons clip sprang to mind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO0-mofj9EY&t=3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO0-mofj9EY&t=3s It is yet another targeting algorithm that has suicide prevent as one very easily replaceable scenario.
jodrellblank 5y ago

newaccount2021 5y ago

Starlevel001 5y ago

Now this cuts out the annoying governmental process of having to find your future suicide bombers. You can just look them up in a database and assign an agent immediately!

kahrl 5y ago
This 2022 remake of Minority Report is really a snooze.

bumby 5y ago

If I'm understanding this correctly, it essentially tries to tell if someone agrees with a statement ("I want to end my life") by looking at "preconscious" brain signals, regardless of what the interviewee answers consciously. So is it like an MRI for lie detectors? I wonder how it compares to the faults of traditional lie detectors. Besides the weird "precog" minority report vibes, it makes for an interesting validation problem.

jrapdx3 5y ago

From the brief overview provided by DARPA it's not entirely clear what methods or system is envisioned to do the "preconscious" screening. Presumably some kind of measurement of brain waves, but that seems way ahead of where the science is at. In any case I wonder if this approach is really the right target. It's true, the suicide rate in military (active duty and veteran) is tragic, but also elevated in the general population. I'd venture a guess that the issue with suicide reflects a tremendous stigma attached to behavioral disorders such that sufferers are dissuaded from seeking evaluation and treatment until conditions reach disabling proportions or maybe not even then. I have serious doubt that technological methodologies alone will be an adequate solution. Of course it's possible that new tools will move the ball downfield and play a role in extinguishing long-standing prejudices but it remains to be seen if that will happen.

bumby 5y ago
I hate to be a cynic, but my feeling is that it's more applicable to lie detection and the suicide prevention is a good application (but probably far from the main goal). Cut out all the suicide-specific wording, and it sounds like generic lie detection that military or law enforcement would have a lot of interest in. "The screening process envisioned could involve presenting various statement stimuli...or intentions (e.g., I want to [do this bad thing]) to measure preconscious responses. "
zigzaggy 5y ago
My personal opinion (backed up with a certain amount of experience) is that much of these suicides are due to a soldier being traumatized, then coming home to try to cope with trauma responses. Some then turn to drowning the trauma with alcohol and other bad stuff. That's when the spiral really accelerates. Unfortunately the stigma you mentioned feels so much worse when someone also hates themselves. They don't recognize the stigma for what it is and start believing they don't deserve to get better. And yes this seems to be a huge problem across humanity. Overdoses and suicides are at historically high levels. And celebrities with tremendous resources still suffer the same way. Which tells me the technology just isn't there.
- 5y ago

_8j50 5y ago

Ugh.. that's none of their damn business? If a person needs help they can reach out and you can make remove any barriers preventing them but having your mental disorder identified against your will sounds horrific. Ends don't justify means!

cscurmudgeon 5y ago
Where does it say it will be against someone’s will?
- _8j50 5y ago
  > ...since patients will often tell their clinicians what they think the clinician wants to hear rather than how they are truly feeling Right in the article. The idea is to find out medical information patients aren't willing to share with their physician.
  - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
    > The idea is to find out medical information patients aren't willing to share with their physician. Plenty of routine medical tests already do that.
unfocussed_mike 5y ago
*sigh* HN comments are entirely predictable. Tools that help understand and detect suicidal behaviour could also help refine an understanding that people can use to spot potentially pre-suicidal behaviour in the people they love. You know that suicidal people often don't, can't or won't reach out for help at all, right? And may in the days before their suicide appear to be dramatically better, serene, even peaceful? There are likely other common patterns of pre-suicidal behaviour (unusual secrecy for example), and a tool that can help clarify what the reliable indicators are, really might stop people killing themselves. We want this, don't we? In DARPA's case, if those people are in the service, it is their damn business; they have a duty of care. Away from DARPA, better processes might have stopped a horrific airline disaster in recent years. There are some people in highly significant, routinely stressful roles who are regularly psych-screened anyway. Those screenings need better tools to be more useful.

api 5y ago

DARPA (war department) works on life-saving applications of AI, while private social media works on addictive engagement algorithms to make people miserable and enslave them to dopamine loops. This strike anyone as a bit off?

after_care 5y ago

This is such a moonshot. Right now, give all warning signs we know if, if you could identified the 100 most likely people in America to attempt suicide in the next 24 hours that haven’t had a previous suicide attempt or previously announced intentions of self harming you might successfully identify 5 people. Answering the question “who will attempt suicide” is a lot like “who will have a fatal car accident “. There’s a handful of obvious warning signs (drunk drivers), but even those aren’t strong enough to allow any certainty.

polski-g 5y ago
Suicidality is 47% heritable. So just get the blood of people who have committed suicide & do some GWAS studies. Then you can look for predictive genetic markers in 23andme data.