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If you instead just think of everyone who drives as very lazy, unengaged, and completely checked out - this is how you get the behavior of traffic in the bay ar

If you instead just think of everyone who drives as very lazy, unengaged, and completely checked out - this is how you get the behavior of traffic in the bay area. Everyone doing everything they can to not have to signal, to change lanes, to slow down or speed up, and to avoid interacting with other traffic. The issue here is that people choose it in an non-optimal way and thus it makes many people having to do a lot more to get around others. And, yeah, the right lane is what I end up having to go into to get past people all the time because they create those walls constantly. And they're not wanting to interact with merging traffic because they're lazy.

skybrian 5y ago
Since when is aggressive driving a virtue? Some people are more patient than others, that's all.
- bradlys 5y ago
  Since when is staying out of the left lane unless passing and not creating walls considered aggressive driving?
  - skybrian 5y ago
    Is there a traffic rule that says you're not supposed to create "walls?"
    - benlivengood 5y ago
      Yep; stay to the right except to pass. It's in most DMV manuals and driving courses. It's not a (enforced) law like it is in some places. EDIT: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=21654 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...
      - ac29 5y ago
        Thats not what your linked law says, it says: "any vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be driven in the right-hand lane"
        StillBored 5y ago
        Some states are much stronger: "Impeding the flow of traffic in the left lane is punishable by a fine of up to $200." https://www.txdot.gov/driver/safety/highway-driving.html https://www.txdot.gov/driver/safety/highway-driving.html along with: "After you pass someone, move into the right lane once you've safely cleared the vehicle."
        thechao 5y ago
        Yeah, except the last time I got in to this, it turned out that Texas was one of the very few states with a well-written sane driving rule. Executive summary of Texas driving law: you must stay as far to the right as you can, without crossing the marker to the shoulder; if you pass, you must do so on the left, without impeding the flow of (oncoming) traffic.
        StillBored 5y ago
        Actually, to lazy to dig it up, but TX has these huge lane sized shoulders on many roads. They are called "improved shoulders" and there are a half dozen cases where they are legally used as lanes. Including the case of a single lane road where someone is stopped in the main travel lane turning left, the shoulder may be used to pass them! (On the right). The more common (legal) use though is as a turning lane.
        camgunz 5y ago
        Indiana has one of these too, and I _loved_ it. Blocking traffic is super unsafe for all kinds of reasons: - Sometimes people need to get by (emergencies) - You're a blown tire / unexpected road hazard away from swerving into the car next to you If you're driving the same speed as the car next to you, feel free to tap your breaks, let them ahead a couple lengths, and then tuck in behind them. It's safer!
- evilotto 5y ago
  I was an aggressive driver when I was younger. Always 5-10mph over the limit, pass at every opportunity, threshold braking at every stop, flooring the gas pulling away from each, generally ignoring warnings to slow down on curves, etc. I only ever got in one very minor accident (I hit a wooden sign that was so rotted it broke at the base and didn't even leave a mark on my bumper) but did have a few close calls (coming up to an exit with traffic too fast and fishtailing into a spinout on the interstate, thankfully not hitting anyone.) Then I decided to gather data. My daily commute was about 15 minutes, maybe 10 miles of mostly 2-lane highway, some turns I had a stop sign, some didn't, so a bit a variation and reasonable opportunities for my aggressive driving. I did an experiment for a few days where I would drive either as aggressively as I normally did, even kicking it up a notch for science, or just chilling out and taking it easy; and timing how long the drive took me with either style. After a few trials, I found that the super-aggressive driving did save time over the relaxed style; but it was less than 30 seconds, an amount that could easily be lost or gained by chance at the one stoplight on my drive. And as a bonus, with the relaxed style, when I arrived at my destination, I was actually more relaxed, with my pulse around 70 instead of 90. I've stuck to a more relaxed style ever since. There have been more than a few times where someone who was in a hurry passed me over a double yellow line and flips my the bird for having the nerve to drive the speed limit and zooms off, and then a mile or two down the road I pull up right behind the exact same driver at a stoplight or other non-passable thing, and I feel that I've made the right choice.
  - bradlys 5y ago
    > and then a mile or two down the road I pull up right behind the exact same driver at a stoplight or other non-passable thing, and I feel that I've made the right choice. This is what we in the business call confirmation bias. As many times as that's happened - I'm sure there are many times where they also didn't get stuck at the traffic light. Yet - you never saw them. Thus you never thought about. Thus... we call it confirmation bias. Interesting.
    - skybrian 5y ago
      Sure, but the rest of the post describes how they did a proper experiment.
tomc1985 5y ago
I'll take lazy Bay Area drivers over aggro Los Angeles drivers any day of the week
throw10920 5y ago
> right lane is what I end up having to go into to get past people all the time because they create those walls constantly Are these "walls" already traveling 5-10 MPH above the speed limit, by any chance?
- hnov 5y ago
  Doesn't really matter, the speed limit is a sham anyway. We often point to how everything is better in Europe, try going to Portugal and sitting in the fast lane and not passing at 150kph (18 mph over limit). You'll have someone on your bumper, flashing their high beams within 30 seconds.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  One question I've never heard an answer to, when someone suggests it's alright to hang in the left and middle lane as long as you're doing the speed limit, is ... how do you decide which law you're going to disregard? Because "slower traffic keep right' does not have a 'unless you are going the speed limit' exception.
  - throw10920 5y ago
    I'll happily skirt the line of the "slower traffic keep right" if it means inconveniencing the self-entitled, aggressive drivers that are willing to break the speed limit but are too lazy to actually try to take action to get that speed limit raised.
  - kelnos 5y ago
    Right, and that's the thing. The general rule of thumb is that if you aren't going faster than the traffic in the lane to your right, you should move to the right, and keep moving to the right until the traffic to the right of you is slower. Speed limits aren't really important to this particular discussion. In the US, at least, they're set mostly based on observed traffic (85th percentile, even, I believe), and not based on any real assessment of what's safe. And there are also political and funding issues at play (consider in the 1970s there was a 55mph federal max speed limit law that was intended to increase fuel efficiency in order to lower dependence on foreign oil). I consider speed limits to be more suggestions; what matters most is that you keep up with traffic and stick to the lane that most closely matches your desired speed. If you're uncomfortable with the speed necessary to keep up with even the rightmost lane, you probably shouldn't be driving on that road anyway.
Firmwarrior 5y ago
Hey man, how about you just figure out some way to relax on the drive instead of psychotically swerving around people? In order to shave a couple of minutes off your commute, you're putting yourself in mortal danger (and worse: you're endangering innocent people who don't actually deserve to die in a fiery car wreck) Here are some suggestions: 1. Move away 2. Move closer to your job 3. Rob a bank and then retire, since you're risking death every day anyway
- bradlys 5y ago
  If you think going into the right lane is risking death - you shouldn't be on the road. You clearly are not good at risk assessment and should not be trusted with a vehicle.
  - kelnos 5y ago
    Every lane change that anyone makes significantly increases the risk of a crash vs. just staying in the same lane. This is basic driver's ed right here. Passing on the right is illegal most places for a reason: it's harder for the driver to your left to see you. The whole point of the convention of having faster traffic to the left and slower to the right is to increase predictability of behavior. I agree with the parent you're replying to. Chill out and stop weaving in and out of traffic. Yes, it's annoying that people don't move to the right to yield to faster traffic, but ultimately you only save seconds or a small number of minutes. The risk -- assessment of which you seem to be not particularly good at -- isn't worth it. I'm not saying I follow my own advice 100% of the time, but I am under no illusion that I'm being safe when I don't.
    - bradlys 5y ago
      > Every lane change that anyone makes significantly increases the risk of a crash vs. just staying in the same lane. Ah, yeah, that's why you see 10,000 people dying every second from changing lanes out on 101. Get off the roads guys. You're really bad at assessing risk. If you think CHANGING LANES is going to KILL EVERYONE then you are in the same group as flat earthers as far as critical thinking goes. Stick with caltrain if this is how you guys truly feel. Your ideal mode of transport I'm sure. It's only got one track going each direction - can't even change lanes!

skybrian 5y ago

Since when is aggressive driving a virtue? Some people are more patient than others, that's all.

bradlys 5y ago
Since when is staying out of the left lane unless passing and not creating walls considered aggressive driving?
- skybrian 5y ago
  Is there a traffic rule that says you're not supposed to create "walls?"
  - benlivengood 5y ago
    Yep; stay to the right except to pass. It's in most DMV manuals and driving courses. It's not a (enforced) law like it is in some places. EDIT: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=21654 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...
    - ac29 5y ago
      Thats not what your linked law says, it says: "any vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be driven in the right-hand lane"
      - StillBored 5y ago
        Some states are much stronger: "Impeding the flow of traffic in the left lane is punishable by a fine of up to $200." https://www.txdot.gov/driver/safety/highway-driving.html https://www.txdot.gov/driver/safety/highway-driving.html along with: "After you pass someone, move into the right lane once you've safely cleared the vehicle."
        thechao 5y ago
        Yeah, except the last time I got in to this, it turned out that Texas was one of the very few states with a well-written sane driving rule. Executive summary of Texas driving law: you must stay as far to the right as you can, without crossing the marker to the shoulder; if you pass, you must do so on the left, without impeding the flow of (oncoming) traffic.
        StillBored 5y ago
        Actually, to lazy to dig it up, but TX has these huge lane sized shoulders on many roads. They are called "improved shoulders" and there are a half dozen cases where they are legally used as lanes. Including the case of a single lane road where someone is stopped in the main travel lane turning left, the shoulder may be used to pass them! (On the right). The more common (legal) use though is as a turning lane.
        camgunz 5y ago
        Indiana has one of these too, and I _loved_ it. Blocking traffic is super unsafe for all kinds of reasons: - Sometimes people need to get by (emergencies) - You're a blown tire / unexpected road hazard away from swerving into the car next to you If you're driving the same speed as the car next to you, feel free to tap your breaks, let them ahead a couple lengths, and then tuck in behind them. It's safer!
evilotto 5y ago
I was an aggressive driver when I was younger. Always 5-10mph over the limit, pass at every opportunity, threshold braking at every stop, flooring the gas pulling away from each, generally ignoring warnings to slow down on curves, etc. I only ever got in one very minor accident (I hit a wooden sign that was so rotted it broke at the base and didn't even leave a mark on my bumper) but did have a few close calls (coming up to an exit with traffic too fast and fishtailing into a spinout on the interstate, thankfully not hitting anyone.) Then I decided to gather data. My daily commute was about 15 minutes, maybe 10 miles of mostly 2-lane highway, some turns I had a stop sign, some didn't, so a bit a variation and reasonable opportunities for my aggressive driving. I did an experiment for a few days where I would drive either as aggressively as I normally did, even kicking it up a notch for science, or just chilling out and taking it easy; and timing how long the drive took me with either style. After a few trials, I found that the super-aggressive driving did save time over the relaxed style; but it was less than 30 seconds, an amount that could easily be lost or gained by chance at the one stoplight on my drive. And as a bonus, with the relaxed style, when I arrived at my destination, I was actually more relaxed, with my pulse around 70 instead of 90. I've stuck to a more relaxed style ever since. There have been more than a few times where someone who was in a hurry passed me over a double yellow line and flips my the bird for having the nerve to drive the speed limit and zooms off, and then a mile or two down the road I pull up right behind the exact same driver at a stoplight or other non-passable thing, and I feel that I've made the right choice.
- bradlys 5y ago
  > and then a mile or two down the road I pull up right behind the exact same driver at a stoplight or other non-passable thing, and I feel that I've made the right choice. This is what we in the business call confirmation bias. As many times as that's happened - I'm sure there are many times where they also didn't get stuck at the traffic light. Yet - you never saw them. Thus you never thought about. Thus... we call it confirmation bias. Interesting.
  - skybrian 5y ago
    Sure, but the rest of the post describes how they did a proper experiment.

tomc1985 5y ago

I'll take lazy Bay Area drivers over aggro Los Angeles drivers any day of the week

throw10920 5y ago

> right lane is what I end up having to go into to get past people all the time because they create those walls constantly Are these "walls" already traveling 5-10 MPH above the speed limit, by any chance?

hnov 5y ago
Doesn't really matter, the speed limit is a sham anyway. We often point to how everything is better in Europe, try going to Portugal and sitting in the fast lane and not passing at 150kph (18 mph over limit). You'll have someone on your bumper, flashing their high beams within 30 seconds.
rootusrootus 5y ago
One question I've never heard an answer to, when someone suggests it's alright to hang in the left and middle lane as long as you're doing the speed limit, is ... how do you decide which law you're going to disregard? Because "slower traffic keep right' does not have a 'unless you are going the speed limit' exception.
- throw10920 5y ago
  I'll happily skirt the line of the "slower traffic keep right" if it means inconveniencing the self-entitled, aggressive drivers that are willing to break the speed limit but are too lazy to actually try to take action to get that speed limit raised.
- kelnos 5y ago
  Right, and that's the thing. The general rule of thumb is that if you aren't going faster than the traffic in the lane to your right, you should move to the right, and keep moving to the right until the traffic to the right of you is slower. Speed limits aren't really important to this particular discussion. In the US, at least, they're set mostly based on observed traffic (85th percentile, even, I believe), and not based on any real assessment of what's safe. And there are also political and funding issues at play (consider in the 1970s there was a 55mph federal max speed limit law that was intended to increase fuel efficiency in order to lower dependence on foreign oil). I consider speed limits to be more suggestions; what matters most is that you keep up with traffic and stick to the lane that most closely matches your desired speed. If you're uncomfortable with the speed necessary to keep up with even the rightmost lane, you probably shouldn't be driving on that road anyway.

Firmwarrior 5y ago

Hey man, how about you just figure out some way to relax on the drive instead of psychotically swerving around people? In order to shave a couple of minutes off your commute, you're putting yourself in mortal danger (and worse: you're endangering innocent people who don't actually deserve to die in a fiery car wreck) Here are some suggestions: 1. Move away 2. Move closer to your job 3. Rob a bank and then retire, since you're risking death every day anyway

bradlys 5y ago
If you think going into the right lane is risking death - you shouldn't be on the road. You clearly are not good at risk assessment and should not be trusted with a vehicle.
- kelnos 5y ago
  Every lane change that anyone makes significantly increases the risk of a crash vs. just staying in the same lane. This is basic driver's ed right here. Passing on the right is illegal most places for a reason: it's harder for the driver to your left to see you. The whole point of the convention of having faster traffic to the left and slower to the right is to increase predictability of behavior. I agree with the parent you're replying to. Chill out and stop weaving in and out of traffic. Yes, it's annoying that people don't move to the right to yield to faster traffic, but ultimately you only save seconds or a small number of minutes. The risk -- assessment of which you seem to be not particularly good at -- isn't worth it. I'm not saying I follow my own advice 100% of the time, but I am under no illusion that I'm being safe when I don't.
  - bradlys 5y ago
    > Every lane change that anyone makes significantly increases the risk of a crash vs. just staying in the same lane. Ah, yeah, that's why you see 10,000 people dying every second from changing lanes out on 101. Get off the roads guys. You're really bad at assessing risk. If you think CHANGING LANES is going to KILL EVERYONE then you are in the same group as flat earthers as far as critical thinking goes. Stick with caltrain if this is how you guys truly feel. Your ideal mode of transport I'm sure. It's only got one track going each direction - can't even change lanes!