5 ms·

Get used to it. In the next 25 years, all the gas stations are going to close and all that gas tax revenue will need to be replaced, as that's how the roads ar

Get used to it. In the next 25 years, all the gas stations are going to close and all that gas tax revenue will need to be replaced, as that's how the roads are maintained. Gas tax is a usage tax, so to replace it with something equivalent, we'll need to be able to track our vehicle's road usage. Maybe cars will just self report, as new cars will just be a consumer electronics device with wheels and a broadband connection anyways. But more than likely the solution will be backwards compatible one at first, like all the license plates becoming e-License plates, with eInk screens and a Fast-Trak style responder for tracking tolls. Extrapolating on this, the idea that you could get into a vehicle and drive along public roads without those roads making a record of your passage is one that will slowly go away. Get used to it. Seriously.

rootusrootus 5y ago
They could just make truckers pay it all. They do the vast majority of damage to the roads as it is. For side roads we could just pay the old fashioned way with normal taxes. People without cars still benefit from the roads existence.
- idiotsecant 5y ago
  This is a good example of policy you get when the people making policy don't understand (or understand but don't want to understand) physics but do understand that the transportation lobby is well-funded and well-connected. On one hand they get a bunch of kickbacks for their reelection war-chest and some roads fail 5 years after their re-election is over anyway and someone else will be blamed for it. On the other hand they directly fund their opponent who is unlikely to turn down those dollars, possibly fail in their reelection bid, and successfully save some roads that everyone will just assume would have lasted anyway. It's not hard to see that it's practically impossible for any other outcome, the system is practically designed to create this kind of situation.
- myself248 5y ago
  Agreed. Road damage scales as the _fourth power_ of the axle weight. That's bonkers, you don't see that exponent in many phenomena. The question is how to move the funds around, as state taxes and road funding stop at state borders, but vehicles don't. And of course states will have a patchwork of registration rules, and won't share money with each other. So the trucking industry will lobby some state to be a tax haven, and all trucks will just be registered there. If only we had some sort of organization that allows states to solve issues that happen between states, like a larger government function...
  - pacificmint 5y ago
    > Road damage scales as the _fourth power_ of the axle weight. I’ve seen numbers that state the road damage caused by one truck is equivalent to several ten thousand cars. (Usually numbers between 10k and 40k). That seemed hard to believe when I first heard it, but the fourth power you mention is the explanation for that insane number.
    - myself248 5y ago
      https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-trucks-do-our-roads https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-...
dehrmann 5y ago
I agree with the premise that governments will have to find a way to make up for the loss of gas tax revenue, but it seems like a really expensive solution, and it doesn't capture use of minor roads.
frumper 5y ago
They could just have you report odometer readings when you register it annually. We could even see a smog style car safety inspection to ensure that the numbers match up every few years. If all else fails an odometer reading when selling and the seller owes the taxes on those miles. No system is fool proof, but that would be a lot easier and cheaper than trying to somehow record every mile driven.
- brewdad 5y ago
  No state is going to want to give up revenues for people who use their roads but live elsewhere. Plenty of major cities are on the border with other states with commuters going back and forth. Oregon tested GPS trackers as a way to track where those miles are driven and tax people accordingly (you could get a rebate on your tax paid at the pump). Understandably, people balked at having their driving tracked so closely and it never got out of the testing phase. Now, with pretty much every new car having a tracker installed by the manufacturer, some state will surely try again.
martinald 5y ago
In the UK there are ANPR cameras everywhere. The police can and will pull your driving history (or at least when you passed the cameras), and if you are 'wanted' it will ping the local police force when you drive past one. Does this exist in the US? This has been going on for nearly 20 years here.
- downrightmike 5y ago
  No many places like Arizona those cameras were made illegal. Some were installed, but the people voted to remove them. That's the difference between citizens and subjects.
  - martinald 5y ago
    This seems to suggest differently. https://www.azmirror.com/2019/07/08/arizona-police-agencies-gather-share-license-plate-data-but-few-ensure-rules-are-being-followed/ https://www.azmirror.com/2019/07/08/arizona-police-agencies-... Seems the US has many more installed in police cars (which is rare in the UK) vs stationary ones, in general.
- russellbeattie 5y ago
  > Does this exist in the US? As with any time this question is asked, try to remember the US is the third largest nation in both geographic size and population, with 320 million citizens spread out over 50 quasi nation-states, a handful of which themselves are bigger than most countries, and all with their own legal systems. We share currency, an army, a flag and a constitution. The rest is a roll of the dice. That said, at a Federal level, I've never heard of this and where I live in Northern California, I haven't heard of anything to that extent either. That doesn't mean it's not happening in some municipality in Michigan or Hawaii, or even in a different part of my own state. Though, honestly, I doubt it. The way we do surveillance here is more roundabout: First we allow right wing news media to scare the shit out of all the old people in the country, who then go out and buy doorbell and other Wifi cameras and start live streaming every square inch of their property, 24/7. Then we either compel the bigco to give the government access to the feed, complete with gag order, or the NSA just hacks in and takes it anyways. It seems to work well. Our video is all HD.
vostrocity 5y ago
Many states already charge EVs and PHEVs a higher annual registration fee than ICE vehicles. I understand replacing the gas taxes, but very weird since it completely works against federal and state EV/PHEV incentives.
- criddell 5y ago
  What do you think they should do?
adrianmonk 5y ago
Crazy(?) solution: tax tires instead of gasoline. The tax amount would be a function of tire size since that correlates (via vehicle weight) with wear and tear on the roads. To handle early replacement (flat tires, etc.), when tires are replaced, give a rebate based on remaining tread. There would probably be a huge market for illegal tires (similar to illegal cigarettes), so that would require enforcement. You'd also need some way to stop tire theft. Maybe encode the vehicle's license plate number into a chip in the tire or something.
Melatonic 5y ago
Couldnt we also just charge a tax on electric vehicle charging stations or even integrate a tax with electric vehicle chargers in homes and multi unit dwellings? I dont personally oppose some tolls (like bridges or even this) but the gas tax (or modern equivalent) completely going away does not seem like it will happen.

rootusrootus 5y ago

They could just make truckers pay it all. They do the vast majority of damage to the roads as it is. For side roads we could just pay the old fashioned way with normal taxes. People without cars still benefit from the roads existence.

idiotsecant 5y ago
This is a good example of policy you get when the people making policy don't understand (or understand but don't want to understand) physics but do understand that the transportation lobby is well-funded and well-connected. On one hand they get a bunch of kickbacks for their reelection war-chest and some roads fail 5 years after their re-election is over anyway and someone else will be blamed for it. On the other hand they directly fund their opponent who is unlikely to turn down those dollars, possibly fail in their reelection bid, and successfully save some roads that everyone will just assume would have lasted anyway. It's not hard to see that it's practically impossible for any other outcome, the system is practically designed to create this kind of situation.
myself248 5y ago
Agreed. Road damage scales as the _fourth power_ of the axle weight. That's bonkers, you don't see that exponent in many phenomena. The question is how to move the funds around, as state taxes and road funding stop at state borders, but vehicles don't. And of course states will have a patchwork of registration rules, and won't share money with each other. So the trucking industry will lobby some state to be a tax haven, and all trucks will just be registered there. If only we had some sort of organization that allows states to solve issues that happen between states, like a larger government function...
- pacificmint 5y ago
  > Road damage scales as the _fourth power_ of the axle weight. I’ve seen numbers that state the road damage caused by one truck is equivalent to several ten thousand cars. (Usually numbers between 10k and 40k). That seemed hard to believe when I first heard it, but the fourth power you mention is the explanation for that insane number.
  - myself248 5y ago
    https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-trucks-do-our-roads https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-...

dehrmann 5y ago

I agree with the premise that governments will have to find a way to make up for the loss of gas tax revenue, but it seems like a really expensive solution, and it doesn't capture use of minor roads.

frumper 5y ago

They could just have you report odometer readings when you register it annually. We could even see a smog style car safety inspection to ensure that the numbers match up every few years. If all else fails an odometer reading when selling and the seller owes the taxes on those miles. No system is fool proof, but that would be a lot easier and cheaper than trying to somehow record every mile driven.

brewdad 5y ago
No state is going to want to give up revenues for people who use their roads but live elsewhere. Plenty of major cities are on the border with other states with commuters going back and forth. Oregon tested GPS trackers as a way to track where those miles are driven and tax people accordingly (you could get a rebate on your tax paid at the pump). Understandably, people balked at having their driving tracked so closely and it never got out of the testing phase. Now, with pretty much every new car having a tracker installed by the manufacturer, some state will surely try again.

martinald 5y ago

In the UK there are ANPR cameras everywhere. The police can and will pull your driving history (or at least when you passed the cameras), and if you are 'wanted' it will ping the local police force when you drive past one. Does this exist in the US? This has been going on for nearly 20 years here.

downrightmike 5y ago
No many places like Arizona those cameras were made illegal. Some were installed, but the people voted to remove them. That's the difference between citizens and subjects.
- martinald 5y ago
  This seems to suggest differently. https://www.azmirror.com/2019/07/08/arizona-police-agencies-gather-share-license-plate-data-but-few-ensure-rules-are-being-followed/ https://www.azmirror.com/2019/07/08/arizona-police-agencies-... Seems the US has many more installed in police cars (which is rare in the UK) vs stationary ones, in general.
russellbeattie 5y ago
> Does this exist in the US? As with any time this question is asked, try to remember the US is the third largest nation in both geographic size and population, with 320 million citizens spread out over 50 quasi nation-states, a handful of which themselves are bigger than most countries, and all with their own legal systems. We share currency, an army, a flag and a constitution. The rest is a roll of the dice. That said, at a Federal level, I've never heard of this and where I live in Northern California, I haven't heard of anything to that extent either. That doesn't mean it's not happening in some municipality in Michigan or Hawaii, or even in a different part of my own state. Though, honestly, I doubt it. The way we do surveillance here is more roundabout: First we allow right wing news media to scare the shit out of all the old people in the country, who then go out and buy doorbell and other Wifi cameras and start live streaming every square inch of their property, 24/7. Then we either compel the bigco to give the government access to the feed, complete with gag order, or the NSA just hacks in and takes it anyways. It seems to work well. Our video is all HD.

vostrocity 5y ago

Many states already charge EVs and PHEVs a higher annual registration fee than ICE vehicles. I understand replacing the gas taxes, but very weird since it completely works against federal and state EV/PHEV incentives.

criddell 5y ago
What do you think they should do?

adrianmonk 5y ago

Crazy(?) solution: tax tires instead of gasoline. The tax amount would be a function of tire size since that correlates (via vehicle weight) with wear and tear on the roads. To handle early replacement (flat tires, etc.), when tires are replaced, give a rebate based on remaining tread. There would probably be a huge market for illegal tires (similar to illegal cigarettes), so that would require enforcement. You'd also need some way to stop tire theft. Maybe encode the vehicle's license plate number into a chip in the tire or something.

Melatonic 5y ago

Couldnt we also just charge a tax on electric vehicle charging stations or even integrate a tax with electric vehicle chargers in homes and multi unit dwellings? I dont personally oppose some tolls (like bridges or even this) but the gas tax (or modern equivalent) completely going away does not seem like it will happen.