7 ms·

Man I really hate the new HOV lanes, there are too many negligent drivers that drive below the speed limit, at least with a carpool lane you could overtake.

core-utility 5y ago
I'd frequently get stuck behind buses, box trucks, and vehicles towing trailers. It's astounding how the latter two are allowed. I somewhat understand municipal buses in an effort to ensure more people ride, and it wouldn't be as annoying if it weren't coupled with the other two.
- vondur 5y ago
  Wow, I just checked, and you can legally tow travel trailers in the TollRoads, except for the 91 expressway here in SoCal. https://thetollroads.com/help/faq/396 https://thetollroads.com/help/faq/396
slg 5y ago
Is this a Bay Area specific thing? The terms "HOV lanes" and "carpool lanes" are used interchangeably in my experience. Are you just calling out separated lanes? The reason for the separation is that traffic in those lanes is often moving much faster than the other lanes which makes it very dangerous to give people the possibility of pulling into that lane unexpectedly. The ideal HOV/carpool lanes should have two lanes to allow passing and be separated from the rest of the lanes to promote safety. The 110 in Los Angeles is a great example and it uses the same transponders with switches that the article is discussing.
- ddoolin 5y ago
  In my experience, the vast majority of HOV/carpool lanes are single lanes, although some stretches like the 110 and the 91 are doubled up and are a much better experience. It's hard to believe the 405, of all places, is a single HOV lane and it bunches up pretty much continuously. Although, on the 91, I don't know that it uses transponder settings since there's a dedicated "3+" lane when you approach reading areas, which are situated right in front of CHP buildings (so they can see if you're really 3+?)
- gowld 5y ago
  They are synonyms, but parent is talking about separated roadway for HOV, that you can't merge into / out of at will.
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    Aren't all HOV lanes separated? Any that I've seen in Canada and the eastern US only allow you to merge at dedicated locations. The new ones on the 400 in Canada actually have a merge lane appears for a few hundred metres before shrinking down again, even though there's no physical barrier, it's all just paint.
    - jcranmer 5y ago
      No. There are several HOV facilities where it's just a regular lane, especially for 'part-time' HOV facilities (which are basically "this lane is HOV during rush hour, regular otherwise"). For example, HOV lanes on the NJT: https://goo.gl/maps/pKzjvAgFUhac1bva7 https://goo.gl/maps/pKzjvAgFUhac1bva7
    - squeaky-clean 5y ago
      I don't think that's the kind of separation they're talking about. It's technically illegal to cross that yellow line, but I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for crossing out and back in to go around a grandpa going 45 in a 70. There are some HOV lanes in Florida that actually split into an entirely separate side road and some that have those soft rollover columns you can drive through but it will scratch up your car so it's really only for emergencies.
      - slg 5y ago
        Exactly. There is a difference between not allowed to merge and not physically able to merge. Merging not being allowed is still dangerous because people don't always follow the rules. It might even be more dangerous than lanes that always allow merging because then at least drivers in the faster lane can prepare themselves to expect merging. A separated lane makes it impossible (or at the very least potentially damaging to the vehicle) to merge. Here is an example of what I think is the ideal HOV setup[1]. There are two lanes so a single slow driver can be overtaken and there are physical dividers that prevent unexpected merging. You can also see the toll signs mentioned in the article that display the passenger number set on the transponders as discussed in the article. [1] - https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9392023,-118.2796649,3a,75y,305.13h,74.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY2VcBfxRiU05VehGvM8OCQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9392023,-118.2796649,3a,75y,...
- jiveturkey 5y ago
  He's referring to the people that drive whatever speed they want to in lane #2.
- roflchoppa 5y ago
  I was under the assumption that HOV lanes cannot be crossed over (double or single white lines) while carpools are dotted and are open to traffic flowing in and out. Of course you can only use it as an overtake lane in none-carpool hours, but now that’s not even an option.
  - slg 5y ago
    The California DOT says they are synonymous[1]: >High-Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lanes, also known as carpool or diamond lanes [1] - https://dot.ca.gov/programs/traffic-operations/hov#:~:text=What%20Is%20an%20HOV%20Lane,carrying%20capacity%20of%20California%20highways https://dot.ca.gov/programs/traffic-operations/hov#:~:text=W....
  - kelnos 5y ago
    There's no distinction between HOV and carpool; they're just different names for the same thing. Whether or not the lanes are separated with designated entry/exit points or are open-access is a matter of local policy and design for that specific highway.
benlivengood 5y ago
But that applies to every lane in CA. The equilibrium seems to be staggered traffic in every lane going the same speed so that no one can cut you off and you know someone is filling your blind spots at all times. Oddly enough the right-hand lane is often free (mostly on 101N between Gilroy and San Jose) since no one wants to interact with merging traffic (one of the very few traffic laws/suggestions anyone follows).
- bradlys 5y ago
  If you instead just think of everyone who drives as very lazy, unengaged, and completely checked out - this is how you get the behavior of traffic in the bay area. Everyone doing everything they can to not have to signal, to change lanes, to slow down or speed up, and to avoid interacting with other traffic. The issue here is that people choose it in an non-optimal way and thus it makes many people having to do a lot more to get around others. And, yeah, the right lane is what I end up having to go into to get past people all the time because they create those walls constantly. And they're not wanting to interact with merging traffic because they're lazy.
  - skybrian 5y ago
    Since when is aggressive driving a virtue? Some people are more patient than others, that's all.
    - bradlys 5y ago
      Since when is staying out of the left lane unless passing and not creating walls considered aggressive driving?
      - skybrian 5y ago
        Is there a traffic rule that says you're not supposed to create "walls?"
        5y ago
Der_Einzige 5y ago
The small amount of discomfort you experience from people driving too slowly is nothing compared to the impacts of people trying to drive as fast as possible. Turns out, that traffic paradoxically moves FASTER (in the aggregate) when you reduce speed limits. https://theconversation.com/increasing-the-speed-limit-wont-get-traffic-moving-faster-104365 https://theconversation.com/increasing-the-speed-limit-wont-... https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/413955/ https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/413955/ https://3659de2n61p72dta253nvqzd-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/static1-squarespace-com.gif https://3659de2n61p72dta253nvqzd-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-... https://3659de2n61p72dta253nvqzd-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/CIhYAiv.gif https://3659de2n61p72dta253nvqzd-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-... No, you do not need to pass slower traffic. Turn your radar cruise control on, enjoy your tunes, and learn to delay gratification.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  The root cause is speed differential between traffic elements or groups thereof. You can either bring the upper bound down with draconian enforcement or you can bring the lower bound up, mostly by raising the statutory speed limit. The latter is far more popular.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    Acceleration differential is also a cause, which cannot be fixed.
- roflchoppa 5y ago
  No radar cruise control, it’s a carburetor, personally I don’t like driving behind people, their not paying attention to the road conditions.
classichasclass 5y ago
Meanwhile, half the HOV-lane drivers around here are single occupant, and I never see the CHP bat an eye.
supernova87a 5y ago
What really bugs me right now is that the lanes are not hard-divided or at least 4-stripe divided from the regular lanes like they are in Southern CA. So what people are doing is switching lanes without fear of penalty in the stretches between the monitoring gantries, and either causing inconvenience or outright danger to others driving responsibly. Hopefully this will be fixed.
- Kina 5y ago
  > What really bugs me right now is that the lanes are not hard-divided or at least 4-stripe divided from the regular lanes like they are in Southern CA. I actually think this is fine, but the signage is _awful_. In a bit of inverse awfulness, look at the 10 in the SGV. They converted a bus lane to an HOV decades (and now Fastrak). It's almost worthless unless your goal is to get from El Monte to downtown. There are virtually no exits/entrances. Also, I resent the effort spent on it because none of its glaring problems have ever been dealt with and my understanding is that it was basically converted to a toll road to comply with some federal requirement to lower travel times. So, the local agencies were able to claim they saved 2 minutes on the commute to downtown and got to keep the federal funding. Way to target the metric there. The difference between how NorCal and SoCal does it is really bizarre. NorCal also has a lot of timed carpool lanes which are slowly being converted to these inane Lexus lanes. The timed carpool lanes felt like they were never a good idea because it seemed to generally cause confusion and instead increased congestion as people weren't sure whether they could use them. Also, I remain infuriated that the on-ramps in NorCal have carpool lanes enforced 24/7 instead of like they are in SoCal--only when the meter is actually on.
amirhirsch 5y ago
Do you like to merge onto a 65 mph highway going 40? Do you like to drive your Prius in the left lane without passing anyone, with no one in front of you, and a trail of cars behind you? Welcome to Silicon Valley! You'll fit right in!
- artificial 5y ago
  People tend to bring their regional driving habits with them and they’re all in conflict.
- roflchoppa 5y ago
  Buck-twenty in a 70s Japanese tin can for me baby.
- m463 5y ago
  If I find myself stuck behind a slow driver, it is very likely (statistically) to be a prius. I'm uncertain if it is the demographic that buys a prius, or the techno display that rewards frugal driving.
stfp 5y ago
It's not negligent to drive below the speed limit
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  It's negligent to be an outlier, high or low, compared to other traffic speeds. I'll cut vehicles in poor states of repair or laden commercial vehicles some slack when it comes to things like merges and hill climbs.
- jiveturkey 5y ago
  It is if you don't make a proper lane selection.

core-utility 5y ago

I'd frequently get stuck behind buses, box trucks, and vehicles towing trailers. It's astounding how the latter two are allowed. I somewhat understand municipal buses in an effort to ensure more people ride, and it wouldn't be as annoying if it weren't coupled with the other two.

vondur 5y ago
Wow, I just checked, and you can legally tow travel trailers in the TollRoads, except for the 91 expressway here in SoCal. https://thetollroads.com/help/faq/396 https://thetollroads.com/help/faq/396

slg 5y ago

Is this a Bay Area specific thing? The terms "HOV lanes" and "carpool lanes" are used interchangeably in my experience. Are you just calling out separated lanes? The reason for the separation is that traffic in those lanes is often moving much faster than the other lanes which makes it very dangerous to give people the possibility of pulling into that lane unexpectedly. The ideal HOV/carpool lanes should have two lanes to allow passing and be separated from the rest of the lanes to promote safety. The 110 in Los Angeles is a great example and it uses the same transponders with switches that the article is discussing.

ddoolin 5y ago
In my experience, the vast majority of HOV/carpool lanes are single lanes, although some stretches like the 110 and the 91 are doubled up and are a much better experience. It's hard to believe the 405, of all places, is a single HOV lane and it bunches up pretty much continuously. Although, on the 91, I don't know that it uses transponder settings since there's a dedicated "3+" lane when you approach reading areas, which are situated right in front of CHP buildings (so they can see if you're really 3+?)
gowld 5y ago
They are synonyms, but parent is talking about separated roadway for HOV, that you can't merge into / out of at will.
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  Aren't all HOV lanes separated? Any that I've seen in Canada and the eastern US only allow you to merge at dedicated locations. The new ones on the 400 in Canada actually have a merge lane appears for a few hundred metres before shrinking down again, even though there's no physical barrier, it's all just paint.
  - jcranmer 5y ago
    No. There are several HOV facilities where it's just a regular lane, especially for 'part-time' HOV facilities (which are basically "this lane is HOV during rush hour, regular otherwise"). For example, HOV lanes on the NJT: https://goo.gl/maps/pKzjvAgFUhac1bva7 https://goo.gl/maps/pKzjvAgFUhac1bva7
  - squeaky-clean 5y ago
    I don't think that's the kind of separation they're talking about. It's technically illegal to cross that yellow line, but I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for crossing out and back in to go around a grandpa going 45 in a 70. There are some HOV lanes in Florida that actually split into an entirely separate side road and some that have those soft rollover columns you can drive through but it will scratch up your car so it's really only for emergencies.
    - slg 5y ago
      Exactly. There is a difference between not allowed to merge and not physically able to merge. Merging not being allowed is still dangerous because people don't always follow the rules. It might even be more dangerous than lanes that always allow merging because then at least drivers in the faster lane can prepare themselves to expect merging. A separated lane makes it impossible (or at the very least potentially damaging to the vehicle) to merge. Here is an example of what I think is the ideal HOV setup[1]. There are two lanes so a single slow driver can be overtaken and there are physical dividers that prevent unexpected merging. You can also see the toll signs mentioned in the article that display the passenger number set on the transponders as discussed in the article. [1] - https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9392023,-118.2796649,3a,75y,305.13h,74.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY2VcBfxRiU05VehGvM8OCQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9392023,-118.2796649,3a,75y,...
jiveturkey 5y ago
He's referring to the people that drive whatever speed they want to in lane #2.
roflchoppa 5y ago
I was under the assumption that HOV lanes cannot be crossed over (double or single white lines) while carpools are dotted and are open to traffic flowing in and out. Of course you can only use it as an overtake lane in none-carpool hours, but now that’s not even an option.
- slg 5y ago
  The California DOT says they are synonymous[1]: >High-Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lanes, also known as carpool or diamond lanes [1] - https://dot.ca.gov/programs/traffic-operations/hov#:~:text=What%20Is%20an%20HOV%20Lane,carrying%20capacity%20of%20California%20highways https://dot.ca.gov/programs/traffic-operations/hov#:~:text=W....
- kelnos 5y ago
  There's no distinction between HOV and carpool; they're just different names for the same thing. Whether or not the lanes are separated with designated entry/exit points or are open-access is a matter of local policy and design for that specific highway.

benlivengood 5y ago

But that applies to every lane in CA. The equilibrium seems to be staggered traffic in every lane going the same speed so that no one can cut you off and you know someone is filling your blind spots at all times. Oddly enough the right-hand lane is often free (mostly on 101N between Gilroy and San Jose) since no one wants to interact with merging traffic (one of the very few traffic laws/suggestions anyone follows).

bradlys 5y ago
If you instead just think of everyone who drives as very lazy, unengaged, and completely checked out - this is how you get the behavior of traffic in the bay area. Everyone doing everything they can to not have to signal, to change lanes, to slow down or speed up, and to avoid interacting with other traffic. The issue here is that people choose it in an non-optimal way and thus it makes many people having to do a lot more to get around others. And, yeah, the right lane is what I end up having to go into to get past people all the time because they create those walls constantly. And they're not wanting to interact with merging traffic because they're lazy.
- skybrian 5y ago
  Since when is aggressive driving a virtue? Some people are more patient than others, that's all.
  - bradlys 5y ago
    Since when is staying out of the left lane unless passing and not creating walls considered aggressive driving?
    - skybrian 5y ago
      Is there a traffic rule that says you're not supposed to create "walls?"
      - 5y ago

Der_Einzige 5y ago

The small amount of discomfort you experience from people driving too slowly is nothing compared to the impacts of people trying to drive as fast as possible. Turns out, that traffic paradoxically moves FASTER (in the aggregate) when you reduce speed limits. https://theconversation.com/increasing-the-speed-limit-wont-get-traffic-moving-faster-104365 https://theconversation.com/increasing-the-speed-limit-wont-... https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/413955/ https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/413955/ https://3659de2n61p72dta253nvqzd-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/static1-squarespace-com.gif https://3659de2n61p72dta253nvqzd-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-... https://3659de2n61p72dta253nvqzd-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/CIhYAiv.gif https://3659de2n61p72dta253nvqzd-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-... No, you do not need to pass slower traffic. Turn your radar cruise control on, enjoy your tunes, and learn to delay gratification.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
The root cause is speed differential between traffic elements or groups thereof. You can either bring the upper bound down with draconian enforcement or you can bring the lower bound up, mostly by raising the statutory speed limit. The latter is far more popular.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  Acceleration differential is also a cause, which cannot be fixed.
roflchoppa 5y ago
No radar cruise control, it’s a carburetor, personally I don’t like driving behind people, their not paying attention to the road conditions.

classichasclass 5y ago

Meanwhile, half the HOV-lane drivers around here are single occupant, and I never see the CHP bat an eye.

supernova87a 5y ago

What really bugs me right now is that the lanes are not hard-divided or at least 4-stripe divided from the regular lanes like they are in Southern CA. So what people are doing is switching lanes without fear of penalty in the stretches between the monitoring gantries, and either causing inconvenience or outright danger to others driving responsibly. Hopefully this will be fixed.

Kina 5y ago
> What really bugs me right now is that the lanes are not hard-divided or at least 4-stripe divided from the regular lanes like they are in Southern CA. I actually think this is fine, but the signage is _awful_. In a bit of inverse awfulness, look at the 10 in the SGV. They converted a bus lane to an HOV decades (and now Fastrak). It's almost worthless unless your goal is to get from El Monte to downtown. There are virtually no exits/entrances. Also, I resent the effort spent on it because none of its glaring problems have ever been dealt with and my understanding is that it was basically converted to a toll road to comply with some federal requirement to lower travel times. So, the local agencies were able to claim they saved 2 minutes on the commute to downtown and got to keep the federal funding. Way to target the metric there. The difference between how NorCal and SoCal does it is really bizarre. NorCal also has a lot of timed carpool lanes which are slowly being converted to these inane Lexus lanes. The timed carpool lanes felt like they were never a good idea because it seemed to generally cause confusion and instead increased congestion as people weren't sure whether they could use them. Also, I remain infuriated that the on-ramps in NorCal have carpool lanes enforced 24/7 instead of like they are in SoCal--only when the meter is actually on.

amirhirsch 5y ago

Do you like to merge onto a 65 mph highway going 40? Do you like to drive your Prius in the left lane without passing anyone, with no one in front of you, and a trail of cars behind you? Welcome to Silicon Valley! You'll fit right in!

artificial 5y ago
People tend to bring their regional driving habits with them and they’re all in conflict.
roflchoppa 5y ago
Buck-twenty in a 70s Japanese tin can for me baby.
m463 5y ago
If I find myself stuck behind a slow driver, it is very likely (statistically) to be a prius. I'm uncertain if it is the demographic that buys a prius, or the techno display that rewards frugal driving.

stfp 5y ago

It's not negligent to drive below the speed limit

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
It's negligent to be an outlier, high or low, compared to other traffic speeds. I'll cut vehicles in poor states of repair or laden commercial vehicles some slack when it comes to things like merges and hill climbs.
jiveturkey 5y ago
It is if you don't make a proper lane selection.