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https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/03/09/mariupol-maternity-hospital-bombed-ukraine-russia-at-this-hour-mclean-vpx.cnn https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/03/09/mariupol-maternity-hospital-bombed-ukraine-russia-at-this-hour-mclean-vpx.cnn https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/03/09/mariupol-materni... After watching this bombarded hospital I wish them to burn in hell. They deserve much stronger sanctions than North Korea.

tablespoon 5y ago
> After watching this bombarded hospital I wish them to burn in hell. They deserve much stronger sanctions than North Korea. It should be noted that sanctions have done nothing to change the behavior of North Korea's leadership to be more palatable to the West. I bet it'll be the same with Russia.
- blackhaz 5y ago
  I don't think anyone in public has enough information to state this. We don't know what NK we'd have to deal with had those sanctions not been in place.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > I don't think anyone in public has enough information to state this. We don't know what NK we'd have to deal with had those sanctions not been in place. But we do know that it is currently an extremely totalitarian country that developed nuclear weapons and ICBMs while under sanctions, and it continues to have a gun pointed at the head of South Korea (e.g. enough dug in artillery to level Seoul a couple times over).
- theturtletalks 5y ago
  Sanctions affect dictatorships and oligarchies differently.
- avgDev 5y ago
  NK is not Russia. Russia knows what western brands and luxuries are. There have been lines in Russia to McDonalds, Victoria's Secret and other stores. The sanctions are working. Russians are going back in time and soon will be standing in line for bread. Chelsea a large premier league team owned by an oligarch has been frozen and he can't sell like he wanted to. Nikkita Mazepin has been removed from F1 and sanctioned along with his oligarch father and no longer can travel in EU. Aeroflot(russian airline) grounded its planes because they will get seized and cannot enter EU/US air space. Other oligarchs are moving their expensive yachts because those are getting seized. Their other assets such as properties and bank accounts are being frozen all over the world and they a lot real estate in the UK. This definitely hurts. The list goes on and on.
  - treis 5y ago
    Everyone agrees sanctions will make Russia poorer. What is less clear, and none of your examples show, is if it will change Russia's geopolitical actions.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > NK is not Russia. Russia knows what western brands and luxuries are. There have been lines in Russia to McDonalds, Victoria's Secret and other stores. Do you really think the Russian government will withdraw from Ukraine because people can't buy McDonald's in Moscow anymore? China isn't sanctioning Russia. I bet the oligarchs and other elietes will continue to get whatever Western status goods they want through smuggling (just like North Korea!), and the Russia people will have sufficient Chinese-manufactured consumer goods (like everyone everywhere else), just equivalents with different logos.
    - ithkuil 5y ago
      "The world was theirs", they could show off their wealth in Paris, in London, in Florence, in New York, in Athens and Mallorca, in Tel Aviv and Sydney. Do you think they would be happy of having their world "shrink" to just Russia and China? Would that feel claustrophobic for these wealthy Russians? Could they do something about it, throwing their weight to shift some power balance and replace their dictator with another one more in line with the actual interests of the Russian riling class?
      - tablespoon 5y ago
        > "The world was theirs", they could show off their wealth in Paris, in London, in Florence, in New York, in Athens and Mallorca, in Tel Aviv and Sydney. Do you think they would be happy of having their world "shrink" to just Russia and China? We'll see, but "being unhappy" is a far cry from deciding to take on some KGB goon who appears to have no compunction against murdering rivals. I highly doubt there will be regime change in Russia because some politically-connected oligarchs' wives can't flout their Hermes handbags in Paris. That seems far more like a fantasy than a realistic expectation.
- School-Cotton 5y ago
  How do you know the sanctions on North Korea haven’t changed anything? It’s impossible to know what their behavior would have been in an alternate reality without sanctions.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > How do you know the sanctions on North Korea haven’t changed anything? It’s impossible to know what their behavior would have been in an alternate reality without sanctions. But it is possible to know that their behavior continues to be extremely unacceptable to the West. So if your goal with sanctions is to stop the invasion of Ukraine and to get Russia to stop threatening its neighbors with similar, it's very likely that sanctions won't work. IMHO, sanctions are something the West does when it doesn't want to solve a problem but still wants to feel like it's doing something. I also think sanctions will end up being counterproductive. They'll fail to address the military situation AND geopolitically they'll push Russia into a deeper alliance with China, strengthening the latter. You've already seen an example of that with Belarus. A few years ago it got sanctioned and its leader was forced to turn to Russia for help. Now it's militarily supporting the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
- cactus2093 5y ago
  It's not like a lack of sanctions would change their behavior either though, maybe nothing we do will change their behavior. In that case they can do less damage to the rest of the world if they are poor and cut off than if they are rich and able to trade freely. And there is still a chance sanctions will change their behavior even if in some cases like with NK it hasn't worked.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > It should be noted that sanctions have done nothing to change the behavior of North Korea's leadership to be more palatable to the West. Sanctions aren't chosen because they are effective at changing behavior, but because they limit capacity if they fail to change behavior. The sanctions on Russia are not “we believe Putin will behave in response to the sanctions” but “we intend to destroy Russia’s economy and thereby limit it's ability to engage in aggression until and unless we are convinced that Putin has made a durable course correction.”
c-smile 5y ago
ATGM position of Mariupol defenders: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4-zYV_6Tgk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4-zYV_6Tgk I hope they have evacuated all residents from there. Even if no one left Mariupol through evacuation corridors.
- keewee7 5y ago
  WarGonzo is Russian state propaganda. How do we know those are Ukrainian defenders and not Russians pretending to Ukrainians?
  - c-smile 5y ago
    Google Maps perhaps? Seems like here: https://www.google.com/maps/@47.1186918,37.6934124,333m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@47.1186918,37.6934124,333m/data...
speg 5y ago
My colleague with family in the region has said that the hospitals are evacuated and being used for logistics. Which might explain why they would be targeted. This video being described as “difficult to watch” seems a lot like propaganda. I don’t know what the truth is, but I know it’s not black and white.
- guenthert 5y ago
  That the Russians invaded Ukraine and not the other way 'round is pretty much black and white though.
  - iosono88 5y ago
  - fock 5y ago
    yes. That's the nature of war. Just like general disinformation and the campaign to support the poor Ukrainians roasting devious Russian in their tanks (while taking 0 losses of course!) and painting the heroic image of a people waging urban warfare defending (read: destroying beyond recognition) their country to the last drop of blood. Some further reading: https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1498490752065757184 https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1498490752065757184 https://yasha.substack.com/p/insurgency https://yasha.substack.com/p/insurgency Putin is evil (and a child of the end of history). And yet, fighting fire with fire in heated, nationalistic conflicts has never been a recipe for improvement.
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
  The truth is Putin's troops invaded Ukraine and are killing innocent people every hour. And it's obvious that each day of this aggression will make this number higher and higher.
  - twoxproblematic 5y ago
- 5y ago
teekert 5y ago
It's horrible, and I bet all well informed Russians will agree that it is. Who are "they"? I think it is mostly up to a small group of people. I feel it is important to not forget that, and not get lost in hatred and revenge. Which is easy to say from far away from the front, I know.
- Schiendelman 5y ago
  “Well informed” is doing a lot of work there. The Russian equivalent of the American Republican is cheering this on, regardless of what information they have access to.
  - teekert 5y ago
    Because Americans are either Republicans or Democrats? Because you can't both think that the government should perhaps not have a monopoly on weapons AND be pro-choice? And you can't both condemn the war and then argue that Gorbachov was promised that the NATO would not expand and it is a factor in this war? What are you saying here? We are humans and our opinions and ideas fall on continuums in many dimensions. Lets keep talking, to anyone, with respect.
    - Schiendelman 5y ago
      If someone’s a Republican now they’re just nuts. Nothing to do with actual policy preferences anymore, just fake stuff. That’s what I’m referring to.
      - teekert 5y ago
        I have no words for this. It sounds to me like you have just lost it. Either that or your entire country lost it. For god's sake, call anyone that voted republican (why do you even call them "a republican"? Maybe they just didn't like Hillary back when?!) and talk to them with an open mind and be kind. I think that would be the best thing to do for your country right now.
throwaway894345 5y ago
When people say stuff like this, I'm inclined to make the distinction between the Russian state and the Russian people. Russia isn't a democracy, so its actions don't necessarily represent the will of the Russian people. And indeed, tens of thousands risk imprisonment by protesting the war, and this gives me hope. However, I've been really bummed lurking on r/AskARussian where many Russians perspectives read like, "I don't like Putin and I don't support this war but the sanctions are worse and the evil West forced Putin's hand and actually Putin is a hero and I love him and support the war". Even still, I don't want Russia to be cut off from the rest of the world, but I also want Putin's murderous conquest to be stopped.
- chernevik 5y ago
  No one is better positioned to end this than the Russian people. I don't see how they can be absolved of that responsibility.
  - nofuture1 5y ago
    This is not entirely accurate. European countries pay billions of dollars for gas directly to the state. If they stopped immediately, the damage would be far greater than anything coming from the ordinary citizens.
    - chernevik 5y ago
      The Russian people can stop that trade by just not showing up for work at Gazprom and Rosneft. I agree, Europe should stop buying Russian gas. But the Russian people are closer to all of this.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    I sort of agree with you, but I don't think the judgment by westerners is justified considering how few westerners have contributed in any significant way toward the freedoms we enjoy and how many actively seek to undermine them (campaigns against free speech, due process, egalitarianism/"colorblindness", unfavorable election results, etc). While it's true that Russians are in the best position to fix their government, those who protest or otherwise resist demonstrate a braveness well in excess of anything most living westerners can claim, and I think that should be the posture with which we discuss Russians resisting their government. EDIT: as a sibling commenter points out, many western countries are still directly financing the war via payments to Russian state fossil fuel companies. How many westerners would be willing to endure a year or more of high prices and economic downturn to resist the Russian invasion (yes, Americans favor boycotting Russian oil now, but (1) will they still after a year of high gas prices and (2) many other western countries are far more dependent on Russian oil than America)?
toyg 5y ago
Remember that the first victim of war is the truth. Putin deserves scorn for starting an unnecessary fight that will inflict unnecessary suffering on millions, but focusing on individual acts is basically meaningless, because they'll be spun to death on both sides.
- Schiendelman 5y ago
  I’m not sure that it matters how much a country defending itself spins things. If the invaders don’t want spin, they can go back to their (unbombed) homes.
  - toyg 5y ago
    I'm just saying that focusing on this or that "atrocity" is just a way to lose sight of the big picture, which inevitably favours somebody's agenda. We don't want to hype ourselves into WW3, no matter how hard some Ukrainians might want us to; we want to find a way to save lives and ramp this down somehow.
    - Schiendelman 5y ago
      Great points, I totally agree. I’m a little worried that Russia will decide to lay waste to Ukraine and not stop until they’ve killed the government. :(
mediumsmart 5y ago
- cbetti 5y ago
  Did you read that account's tweets? It's clearly a biased account with an agenda.
VictorPath 5y ago
US-armed Israel was bombing hospitals and clinics in Gaza last year. https://mobile.twitter.com/MSF/status/1393868206566223872 https://mobile.twitter.com/MSF/status/1393868206566223872 Of course Israel said Palestinians they were fighting were nearby, but that is what the Russians are saying too. I don't remember the maudlin, mawkish melodrama of hospitals and clinics being bombed by a US armed country being such a big deal in the US last year. Actually Biden's team is in Saudi Arabia right now discussing a deal for Saudi Arabia to export more oil if the US drops its minimal sanctions last year relating to its bloody war in Yemen and disembowlment of a Washington Post reporter in a Turkish embassy.

tablespoon 5y ago

> After watching this bombarded hospital I wish them to burn in hell. They deserve much stronger sanctions than North Korea. It should be noted that sanctions have done nothing to change the behavior of North Korea's leadership to be more palatable to the West. I bet it'll be the same with Russia.

blackhaz 5y ago
I don't think anyone in public has enough information to state this. We don't know what NK we'd have to deal with had those sanctions not been in place.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > I don't think anyone in public has enough information to state this. We don't know what NK we'd have to deal with had those sanctions not been in place. But we do know that it is currently an extremely totalitarian country that developed nuclear weapons and ICBMs while under sanctions, and it continues to have a gun pointed at the head of South Korea (e.g. enough dug in artillery to level Seoul a couple times over).
theturtletalks 5y ago
Sanctions affect dictatorships and oligarchies differently.
avgDev 5y ago
NK is not Russia. Russia knows what western brands and luxuries are. There have been lines in Russia to McDonalds, Victoria's Secret and other stores. The sanctions are working. Russians are going back in time and soon will be standing in line for bread. Chelsea a large premier league team owned by an oligarch has been frozen and he can't sell like he wanted to. Nikkita Mazepin has been removed from F1 and sanctioned along with his oligarch father and no longer can travel in EU. Aeroflot(russian airline) grounded its planes because they will get seized and cannot enter EU/US air space. Other oligarchs are moving their expensive yachts because those are getting seized. Their other assets such as properties and bank accounts are being frozen all over the world and they a lot real estate in the UK. This definitely hurts. The list goes on and on.
- treis 5y ago
  Everyone agrees sanctions will make Russia poorer. What is less clear, and none of your examples show, is if it will change Russia's geopolitical actions.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > NK is not Russia. Russia knows what western brands and luxuries are. There have been lines in Russia to McDonalds, Victoria's Secret and other stores. Do you really think the Russian government will withdraw from Ukraine because people can't buy McDonald's in Moscow anymore? China isn't sanctioning Russia. I bet the oligarchs and other elietes will continue to get whatever Western status goods they want through smuggling (just like North Korea!), and the Russia people will have sufficient Chinese-manufactured consumer goods (like everyone everywhere else), just equivalents with different logos.
  - ithkuil 5y ago
    "The world was theirs", they could show off their wealth in Paris, in London, in Florence, in New York, in Athens and Mallorca, in Tel Aviv and Sydney. Do you think they would be happy of having their world "shrink" to just Russia and China? Would that feel claustrophobic for these wealthy Russians? Could they do something about it, throwing their weight to shift some power balance and replace their dictator with another one more in line with the actual interests of the Russian riling class?
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      > "The world was theirs", they could show off their wealth in Paris, in London, in Florence, in New York, in Athens and Mallorca, in Tel Aviv and Sydney. Do you think they would be happy of having their world "shrink" to just Russia and China? We'll see, but "being unhappy" is a far cry from deciding to take on some KGB goon who appears to have no compunction against murdering rivals. I highly doubt there will be regime change in Russia because some politically-connected oligarchs' wives can't flout their Hermes handbags in Paris. That seems far more like a fantasy than a realistic expectation.
School-Cotton 5y ago
How do you know the sanctions on North Korea haven’t changed anything? It’s impossible to know what their behavior would have been in an alternate reality without sanctions.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > How do you know the sanctions on North Korea haven’t changed anything? It’s impossible to know what their behavior would have been in an alternate reality without sanctions. But it is possible to know that their behavior continues to be extremely unacceptable to the West. So if your goal with sanctions is to stop the invasion of Ukraine and to get Russia to stop threatening its neighbors with similar, it's very likely that sanctions won't work. IMHO, sanctions are something the West does when it doesn't want to solve a problem but still wants to feel like it's doing something. I also think sanctions will end up being counterproductive. They'll fail to address the military situation AND geopolitically they'll push Russia into a deeper alliance with China, strengthening the latter. You've already seen an example of that with Belarus. A few years ago it got sanctioned and its leader was forced to turn to Russia for help. Now it's militarily supporting the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
cactus2093 5y ago
It's not like a lack of sanctions would change their behavior either though, maybe nothing we do will change their behavior. In that case they can do less damage to the rest of the world if they are poor and cut off than if they are rich and able to trade freely. And there is still a chance sanctions will change their behavior even if in some cases like with NK it hasn't worked.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> It should be noted that sanctions have done nothing to change the behavior of North Korea's leadership to be more palatable to the West. Sanctions aren't chosen because they are effective at changing behavior, but because they limit capacity if they fail to change behavior. The sanctions on Russia are not “we believe Putin will behave in response to the sanctions” but “we intend to destroy Russia’s economy and thereby limit it's ability to engage in aggression until and unless we are convinced that Putin has made a durable course correction.”

c-smile 5y ago

ATGM position of Mariupol defenders: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4-zYV_6Tgk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4-zYV_6Tgk I hope they have evacuated all residents from there. Even if no one left Mariupol through evacuation corridors.

keewee7 5y ago
WarGonzo is Russian state propaganda. How do we know those are Ukrainian defenders and not Russians pretending to Ukrainians?
- c-smile 5y ago
  Google Maps perhaps? Seems like here: https://www.google.com/maps/@47.1186918,37.6934124,333m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@47.1186918,37.6934124,333m/data...

speg 5y ago

My colleague with family in the region has said that the hospitals are evacuated and being used for logistics. Which might explain why they would be targeted. This video being described as “difficult to watch” seems a lot like propaganda. I don’t know what the truth is, but I know it’s not black and white.

guenthert 5y ago
That the Russians invaded Ukraine and not the other way 'round is pretty much black and white though.
- iosono88 5y ago
- fock 5y ago
  yes. That's the nature of war. Just like general disinformation and the campaign to support the poor Ukrainians roasting devious Russian in their tanks (while taking 0 losses of course!) and painting the heroic image of a people waging urban warfare defending (read: destroying beyond recognition) their country to the last drop of blood. Some further reading: https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1498490752065757184 https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1498490752065757184 https://yasha.substack.com/p/insurgency https://yasha.substack.com/p/insurgency Putin is evil (and a child of the end of history). And yet, fighting fire with fire in heated, nationalistic conflicts has never been a recipe for improvement.
hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
The truth is Putin's troops invaded Ukraine and are killing innocent people every hour. And it's obvious that each day of this aggression will make this number higher and higher.
- twoxproblematic 5y ago
5y ago

teekert 5y ago

It's horrible, and I bet all well informed Russians will agree that it is. Who are "they"? I think it is mostly up to a small group of people. I feel it is important to not forget that, and not get lost in hatred and revenge. Which is easy to say from far away from the front, I know.

Schiendelman 5y ago
“Well informed” is doing a lot of work there. The Russian equivalent of the American Republican is cheering this on, regardless of what information they have access to.
- teekert 5y ago
  Because Americans are either Republicans or Democrats? Because you can't both think that the government should perhaps not have a monopoly on weapons AND be pro-choice? And you can't both condemn the war and then argue that Gorbachov was promised that the NATO would not expand and it is a factor in this war? What are you saying here? We are humans and our opinions and ideas fall on continuums in many dimensions. Lets keep talking, to anyone, with respect.
  - Schiendelman 5y ago
    If someone’s a Republican now they’re just nuts. Nothing to do with actual policy preferences anymore, just fake stuff. That’s what I’m referring to.
    - teekert 5y ago
      I have no words for this. It sounds to me like you have just lost it. Either that or your entire country lost it. For god's sake, call anyone that voted republican (why do you even call them "a republican"? Maybe they just didn't like Hillary back when?!) and talk to them with an open mind and be kind. I think that would be the best thing to do for your country right now.

throwaway894345 5y ago

When people say stuff like this, I'm inclined to make the distinction between the Russian state and the Russian people. Russia isn't a democracy, so its actions don't necessarily represent the will of the Russian people. And indeed, tens of thousands risk imprisonment by protesting the war, and this gives me hope. However, I've been really bummed lurking on r/AskARussian where many Russians perspectives read like, "I don't like Putin and I don't support this war but the sanctions are worse and the evil West forced Putin's hand and actually Putin is a hero and I love him and support the war". Even still, I don't want Russia to be cut off from the rest of the world, but I also want Putin's murderous conquest to be stopped.

chernevik 5y ago
No one is better positioned to end this than the Russian people. I don't see how they can be absolved of that responsibility.
- nofuture1 5y ago
  This is not entirely accurate. European countries pay billions of dollars for gas directly to the state. If they stopped immediately, the damage would be far greater than anything coming from the ordinary citizens.
  - chernevik 5y ago
    The Russian people can stop that trade by just not showing up for work at Gazprom and Rosneft. I agree, Europe should stop buying Russian gas. But the Russian people are closer to all of this.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  I sort of agree with you, but I don't think the judgment by westerners is justified considering how few westerners have contributed in any significant way toward the freedoms we enjoy and how many actively seek to undermine them (campaigns against free speech, due process, egalitarianism/"colorblindness", unfavorable election results, etc). While it's true that Russians are in the best position to fix their government, those who protest or otherwise resist demonstrate a braveness well in excess of anything most living westerners can claim, and I think that should be the posture with which we discuss Russians resisting their government. EDIT: as a sibling commenter points out, many western countries are still directly financing the war via payments to Russian state fossil fuel companies. How many westerners would be willing to endure a year or more of high prices and economic downturn to resist the Russian invasion (yes, Americans favor boycotting Russian oil now, but (1) will they still after a year of high gas prices and (2) many other western countries are far more dependent on Russian oil than America)?

toyg 5y ago

Remember that the first victim of war is the truth. Putin deserves scorn for starting an unnecessary fight that will inflict unnecessary suffering on millions, but focusing on individual acts is basically meaningless, because they'll be spun to death on both sides.

Schiendelman 5y ago
I’m not sure that it matters how much a country defending itself spins things. If the invaders don’t want spin, they can go back to their (unbombed) homes.
- toyg 5y ago
  I'm just saying that focusing on this or that "atrocity" is just a way to lose sight of the big picture, which inevitably favours somebody's agenda. We don't want to hype ourselves into WW3, no matter how hard some Ukrainians might want us to; we want to find a way to save lives and ramp this down somehow.
  - Schiendelman 5y ago
    Great points, I totally agree. I’m a little worried that Russia will decide to lay waste to Ukraine and not stop until they’ve killed the government. :(

mediumsmart 5y ago

cbetti 5y ago
Did you read that account's tweets? It's clearly a biased account with an agenda.

VictorPath 5y ago

US-armed Israel was bombing hospitals and clinics in Gaza last year. https://mobile.twitter.com/MSF/status/1393868206566223872 https://mobile.twitter.com/MSF/status/1393868206566223872 Of course Israel said Palestinians they were fighting were nearby, but that is what the Russians are saying too. I don't remember the maudlin, mawkish melodrama of hospitals and clinics being bombed by a US armed country being such a big deal in the US last year. Actually Biden's team is in Saudi Arabia right now discussing a deal for Saudi Arabia to export more oil if the US drops its minimal sanctions last year relating to its bloody war in Yemen and disembowlment of a Washington Post reporter in a Turkish embassy.