14 ms·

Accused of cheating, marathon runner Frank Meza's life fell apart (2019)

113 points by georgecmu 5y ago

d_runs_far 5y ago
My perspective on this is a bit different. I used to be a race director for ultra-marathons. I ended up having a serial cheater show up to a couple of my events, and end up winning. The biggest scam was that I comped him a free entry for winning to come back, which happened twice. So that means the legit winner lost out on that, a token amount, maybe $150, but it still, 6+ years on, pisses me off that I was duped. For me it was a huge "Why??" we were a small, regional race, didn't have any status as a qualifier or anything. By all accounts and the subsequent magazine article about the cheater revealed what in hindsight would be some serious mental health issues on his part.
ck2 5y ago
Runners do not tolerate cheaters at all but the way this was handled was ridiculously unacceptable. Since there's no penalty for humiliating someone to death, for the press it's even profitable, so of course that's what ends up happening. Also, anyone who runs knows that website they mention is one of the most toxic places on the internet, not just for running but everything and anything. ala "4chan" (8chan?) It's hundreds, thousands, of teenagers and 20-something boys with complete anonymity and nothing but free time. The website owners do not moderate. So once they get ahold of something to attack, they are going to bully it to death, in this case literally.
- daniel-cussen 5y ago
  He could have shut them up by running fast with an observer, like they ordered him to repeatedly. This article leaves out a lot of his disqualifications, too. EDIT: And I fail to see any materially objectionable, insulting harassment, meaning beyond calling him out for cheating, which he totally deserved.
  - camtarn 5y ago
    You missed this bit? "Meanwhile, on LetsRun, some users had posted contact information for Meza’s employers. A handful of people left negative online reviews for him."
    - daniel-cussen 5y ago
      Oh OK that, yeah, that's harassment.
      - scatters 5y ago
        Is it? Don't his patients have a right to know that he's a fraud?
        BasDirks 5y ago
        No, they don't have such a right, but everyone has the right to call him out publicly. The key point, for me, is that vengeance is evil. Cheaters should be exposed but not destroyed. Go the full mile to get cheaters banned from competitions and make sure that the record is set straight. Make sure that past winnings and glory is returned and nullified, and leave it at that.
        scatters 5y ago
        I'd argue they absolutely do have that right. A doctor is in a position of immense power and trust, and you need to know that your doctor will be honest if they make mistakes and not try to cover them up. This is a matter of character.
        BasDirks 5y ago
        You gonna tell them if he steals cookies from the cookie jar? I see your point but I ask where you draw the line.
        Werewolf255 5y ago
WaxedChewbacca 5y ago
jmcgough 5y ago
Hard to know if this guy was guilty or not, but online harassment forums are so toxic and yet there's no laws to really stop them. Reminds me of Near's sad death after years of harassment from kiwifarms (https://kotaku.com/the-brilliant-snes-emulator-creator-known-as-near-has-d-1847182851 https://kotaku.com/the-brilliant-snes-emulator-creator-known...)
- jcdavis 5y ago
  The dude was 100% cheating, but the internet vigilantism around this was awful. One of the many unfortunate side effects of the largest (english?) running forum being a glorified 4chan run by 2 idiots, one of whom then gets interviewed for this story with next to no discussion of how he enabled it
  - hef19898 5y ago
    I remember when I read this story, I think it was on Wired, my first impression was that the guy literally chasing Dr. Meza had at least as many problems as someone cheating and doubling down on his cheating, if not more. Maybe it's because during my active days I was part of a different sports community, but the few self-declared guardians of purity of the sport we had were either ignored or they functionaries. In the latter case, everyone was happy to have someone to organize tournaments, and then they were ignored for the most part. All that was before the internet really took of, so. But those "guardians" of whatever cause are among the most toxic and worst people I know.
    - daniel-cussen 5y ago
      It's super common to hate the referee, in every sport.
      - hef19898 5y ago
        Oh, did I hate some referees. I wasn't referring to referees, so. But the people, either practitioners or not, that have some "higher" goal of keeping whatever sport "pure". Usually not necessarily group consensus, always driven by personal opinion and usually turning into crusades of sorts because, of course, those guardians are right. Referees are just making sure rules are followed.
dfgasdgsd 5y ago
This was such a sad story - everything I read at the time said Dr Meza was a charitable, successful member of the community in LA (running coach, founded programs towards Latino students, etc.). The LetsRun forum is such a wild place - it's a really strange mix of great running news discussion, 4-chan / bodybuilding.com conspiracy theories, and (IMO) a lot of teenage / college male runners who have a lot of angst, and something to prove because they are in an unpopular sport. Moderators/owners (rojo / pojo? or something) don't do anything / actively encourage this.
- AdamJMarsh 5y ago
  Bodybuilding.com misc & 4chan are super toxic communities. I look back at my teenage years and realised how hazardous they are to mental health. My curiousity & engagement on those communities was limited to infrequent lurking. I now understand why alt-right/q anon movement popped up so quickly. A big issue with these boards is that the ownership can't overmod because these communities are a big drawcard, even if they're financial negatives.
  - Ansil849 5y ago
    > Bodybuilding.com misc & 4chan are super toxic communities. Yes, but so are Facebook and Twitter.
    - AdamJMarsh 5y ago
      Communities there can and have been super toxic yes. There is a difference though as those platforms have larger moderation resources though.
      - iamacyborg 5y ago
        I dunno, I just had a weird incident happen last week where a family member of mine received a ton of cyber bullying on Twitter because she’s an actress and has an unusual surname. When I reported stuff Twitter said it wasn’t against their policies.
Reubend 5y ago
It's terrible that people were harassing this man, and that those communities formed a mob mentality against him. But I don't feel particularly sorry for him; he cheated, denied it, threatened to sue people, and then eventually took his own life after his reputation was ruined. Perhaps if he had stopped competing after the first blog post exposing him, things would have de-escalated. Instead, he doubled down on his lies, and made things worse for himself.
- bo1024 5y ago
  By all accounts (including a friend of mine) he was a wonderful person, mentor, coach, etc. back in the day. It sounds like maybe he developed some mental issues that eventually led to both the cheating and suicide.
  - rectang 5y ago
    There are lots of cheaters (and worse) out there with "wonderful" reputations. I feel sorry for Meza — even when self-inflicted, pain is pain — but I'm glad he didn't get away with it. I wish that our world did not reward cheating so regularly and handsomely, and I wish Meza had not chosen to cheat.
- probably_wrong 5y ago
  I do feel sorry for him, and I think you are being too forgiving to the trolls here. This was not a mere "ruined reputation", but rather a persistent, coordinated mobbing assault big enough that not even a professional PR firm could do anything. Did he cheat? Likely yes. Did he deserve being banned from marathons? Sounds like it. But did he deserve "the pressure, attention, emailing, even trolling" that he got? No, he did not. If I were in his position, I would have also tried to sue.
  - throwaway6734 5y ago
    People that break the social contract and then try to gaslight the rest of society when discovered instead of admitting their actions are some of the lowest kinds of people. They corrode social trust. I have no sympathy for this person, they're a snake.
ALittleLight 5y ago
I have a hard time understanding both cheating at a marathon and killing yourself over being discovered to have cheated in marathons. I wonder if there is a relation between the two in terms of the psychology required - an intense desire for public approval.
- trgn 5y ago
  Same personality that is attracted to a profession with built-in prestige, say doctor or lawyer. This story would be way less believable if he were an artisan of any sort.
  - geranim0 5y ago
    how can you cheat at being an artisan
    - daniel-cussen 5y ago
      Lol, I just saw some dude trying to sell Mate cups at crazy prices. They were good cups, though...so I suppose you cheat by selling something that looks like bronze when it's really not? Just sell crap quality.
    - cko 5y ago
      An artisan cheating at marathoning, not a doctor cheating at artisaning.
    - avereveard 5y ago
      well one thing that comes to mind is all the "crafts" on etsy that are just aliexpress flips
    - mardifoufs 5y ago
      Buckle up: https://dallasfood.org/2015/12/mast-brothers-what-lies-behind-the-beards-part-1-tastetexture/ https://dallasfood.org/2015/12/mast-brothers-what-lies-behin...
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
wiradikusuma 5y ago
I'm just wondering if technically and economically we're at the point where we can use drone for each runner from start to finish? Or at least for people who wants it. ("I'm not a cheater, I'll show you") I think the tech for self-navigating drone that follows a person is already mature?
- helsinkiandrew 5y ago
  The number of participants in many/most marathons would make this an economic and safety nightmare - better would be more checkpoints (perhaps every 1Km) with good video coverage of the runners passing them.
  - nsteel 5y ago
    Definitely. I can imagine the sky above a major race almost turning dark as 40,000 drones hover overhead. Sounds very unrealistic (and horrible). More static cameras would suffice. And GPS watch data where available.
    - Beltalowda 5y ago
      Drones are noisy as hell. You'll have to outfit everyone with hearing protection if there's hundreds or thousands of them for hours on end.
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    This could make marathons entertaining for a change?
- drdrey 5y ago
  these drones would need 3+ hours of battery life
  - maxden 5y ago
    you could daisy chain them, swapping them in/out
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mftb 5y ago
I'm an older runner (50+), live in LA. I feel in some sense this story might be near to me, but it might as well be in a parallel universe. I never run in organized events. I specifically run by myself, so I can enjoy my time, free from social pressure. I don't understand any of the players in this whole drama. Most of the time I just feel like an alien from the whole thing, then I go running and feel better.
sonicggg 5y ago
What a wild story. Everybody is taking these amateur events way too seriously. Not just Meza, who went through all the trouble of doing that, and all for social media points. These Internet patrol guys also seem a bit pathetic, like Derek Murphy. They've got way too much time on their hands. Are they also going to report kids that cheat on board games soon?
- nsteel 5y ago
  > Are they also going to report kids that cheat on board games soon? Perhaps, if those kids start breaking board game records. Fewest number of turns to Monopoly millionaire? Most items placed on the Buckaroo horse? Chess and go games would be better examples. But more seriously, how seriously should people take these events? For those that are actually runners (and not just trolls), running may be there passion and doing well in these (pricey) events might be the highlight of their year. And then they hear others are cheating and I can imagine some would get very angry about that. Same with absolutely anything you invest your resources in.
  - InCityDreams 5y ago
    > Are they also going to report kids that cheat on board games soon? If its in a public competition, yes, kids should be outed for cheating. Less publicly...how many families get into it when someone gets caught cheating? If i play cards for pennies with my friends, and one cheats, should nothing be said?
    - rendall 5y ago
      > kids should be outed for cheating Absolutely not. No child should be publicly outed for anything whatsoever. Perhaps quietly disqualified, but I will never find it acceptable to "out" children who make poor decisions.
nano9 5y ago
That Murphy guy behind "MarathonInvestigation" claims to be objective and about the facts, but his Twitter looks like a doxxing blog. You would think this wouldn't be appealing, but he seems to have quit his day job as a financial analyst in order to run his website. Is this content really that profitable?
- Werewolf255 5y ago
  It's also telling that, in the article, the only thing he suggests he might have done differently is ask people to register on the site. Like user registration was the thing that people were concerned about. Oh and of course, he bears no responsibility. Naturally.
bluecalm 5y ago
A lot of comments focus on how he was "harassed to death". I see it differently. He cheated, didn't admit it when caught, continued to compete and cheat. This is a common situation. You either lose your reputation or continue to deny it and hope it goes away. Every time you cheat you hurt other people. People care about their little competitions, it's often significant part of their lives. If you come there and cheat hurt them. You continue hurting them every time you do it. You build your reputation at the cost of theirs. Courts/law enforcement are a useless avenue when it comes to cheating in sports or games. The only mechanism that works is reputation. He deserved his reputation to be ruined, he deserved to be exposed and humiliated. He could have stopped it all by not competing anymore or you know, at least not cheating. His reputation was more important to him than his life. I respect the choice but it's only his. The community he tried to cheat employed the only defense mechanism that actually works. You learn it's the only mechanism that works if you dealt with bullying, cheating at gambling, cheating in small business deals, cheating in sports, especially amateur ones. There is nothing else you can use to fight cheating/abuse. It's true the abuser often never admits wrongdoing until they are exposed publicly and humiliated. They hope it never gets to that point and they are often right. The same way the school bully doesn't face consequences, someone who stole something small from a friend doesn't or someone who cheated you in a poker game. When they do get exposed they often blame their victims - true bully style. When I read the article I think about the victims. People who competed with him just so ego of a cheater could be satisfied and who beared the frustration of being helpless and officials ignoring their concerns for too long. The article also mentions one of the most common and naive mistakes people make when accessing character: "Everyone who knew him testified to his generosity, modesty, and sense of justice." It's very easy and common for successful people to be generous and offer "sense of justice" to the community. I've seen this tens of times in the gambling world. You're successful, you are admired, you share your knowledge with others, help them, are asked to help when resolving disputes. You're well respected and feed of it. Then a day comes when things turn around. You either got caught cheating or the one edge you have becomes known and it's no longer there. Your results suffer and then it starts: you scam someone in a deal, you stop picking up calls from people who lend you money, you are suddenly involved in more and more shadiness. It's just very difficult to judge someone's character when things are going well for them. Even violent drug dealer were often loved in their communities. It's just how people behave. It's easy, it's rewarding. It doesn't say much about your character. It's a long rant about something I have dealt a lot with during my life from early years to adulthood. In business, in gambling, in sports, in little in group competitions for status. I know the community usually sides with the abuser/cheater. They are the popular one and it's just easier. He deserved his reputation to be ruined. For him it was more important than his life. Please don't blame the victims for his choices.
daniel-cussen 5y ago
The spin they put on this is incredible. Doesn't talk about all his disqualifications and that the Marathon declared his times objectively impossible. Guy cheats like crazy, crazy bad, objectively. The article puts a different spin on it but it was objective, not accused of cheating, cheater. Oh, oh, but he's a doctor. Doctor's don't cheat, they're super honest, the community, gives away money, good person good person! They don't even do that much to get at him, they just ask him to prove it. I don't see it as harassment. He put himself in the spotlight when he ran those crazy times. Keep in mind, if this guy actually had actually run even one of his times for real, it would have been an opportunity to challenge the best. Just run one more marathon, or not even, just 5K at that same speed. A chance at the bigtime! This happened with the Wright Brothers, the press actually did harass them in that case, but everyone said they were "Flyers or Liars". It was an opportunity! Well the Wright Brothers were Flyers. Frank Meza was a liar. And when the Wright Brothers did fly in front of all those journalists they became the most famous people in the world! Meza had so many opportunities to admit he cheated. And he had the choice (obviously not but hypothetically) of running like he said he did! They gave him that out! Nobody looks at the people he cheated, he didn't cheat the marathon, he cheated other runners, real people came in one slot later, there was a real 70-74 year old who actually had merit that could have come in first and made the news, except for Frank Meza. It's just not the same to be declared a winner after the fact, by disqualification especially if the cheater never admits it. And runners just hate the cheaters, this is so much worse than steroids, teleporters ruin the sport on another level. And never admits it, with so much proof! Like he tried running even half as fast as he said he did and he ends up cardiac problems! Headline should say "Marathon Cheater Frank Meza Kills Himself to Avoid Admitting It". There's life after death. In a parallel universe, he respawned in like a psych ward (typically) and it's twice as bad, I guess they treat him better in the ward because he's a doctor but he still lives his life out in shame as a fraud. Probably then his life really does fall apart, people going through everything he's done with a fine-toothed comb, and find all sorts of stuff. Nobody cheats exclusively in the cases they're caught. He just spent his whole life asking people to kiss up to him, well where he respawned I can tell you there is absolutely none of that.
- rendall 5y ago
  A careful reading, especially to the end, shows that the writer is certain that Meza cheated. And yet respects and has empathy for him and his family, despite that. Meza was much more than his worst moment, as are we all.
tomovo 5y ago
Looks like they only came up with solid evidence after he died. Harrasment based on mere suspicion was unfair. Poor guy had a character flaw. Did they ever run along to actually verify? Nah, too lazy, just blame him and see what happens.
- emptyfile 5y ago
  He was literally disqualified multiple times from races before that including a lifetime ban from a marathon he cheated at... then he went to LA marathon where he wasn't banned, but had to run with an observer, and still ran without an observer to set the world record in his age group... Did posters just stopped reading articles on HN?
  - tomovo 5y ago
    You're accusing me of not reading the article. Where does it mention hard evidence of cheating before his death? Suspicious splits are not evidence. Not running with an observer is just that. I get that people get mad at cheaters but without evidence it's unfair to harrass people. Even asking them to "prove" their ability is harrasment. That's all.
    - emptyfile 5y ago
      He was literally supposed to run with an observer(because he's a cheater and can't be trusted) and he didn't, several times. How is that not cheating? >In 2015 the L.A. Marathon must have noticed something fishy because officials asked him to run with an observer in the future. But when he returned in 2017, he ran alone, the observer idea apparently forgotten. He also ran solo in 2018 and 2019. >So Murphy and the LetsRun crew grumbled when the L.A. Marathon announced in early June that it would not disqualify Meza from the 2019 race. >Instead, officials would ask him—again—to run with an observer next time around. “This is the best solution for all,” they told Murphy. They're literally begging the guy to stop cheating so they don't have to ban him, and the guys does a world record. It's beyond ridiculous. Instead of admitting it, he kills himself. I'm sorry, the whole story is tragic, but obviously this guy's problems went far beyond evil posters on letsrun, as awful as that site is.
prettyStandard 5y ago
It's called anomic suicide.
teliskr 5y ago
As a mid-40s marathoner, this is really interesting to me. I don't feel sorry for him; other than that he lived life with an ego condition allowing him to do this. That is sad, but he earned the scrutiny and outing. Right now, I'm running 50+ miles a week training for a marathon. That is really hard and a major commitment. I won't set any records, but I have a good shot at placing in my age group. I don't run to win anything or achieve a certain place, but I would be somewhat pissed off if some idiot like this cheated and beat me. I enjoy most of the time that I spend running, but to get to this level, you have to go through a pretty difficult level of training which makes all of your life a lot more stressful during the periods of intense training. Right now, I'm staying in a job that I don't like because the schedule is very flexible and allows me to spend around 15 hours a week training.
- martimarkov 5y ago
  As the article pointed out - there was no concrete evidence beyond doubt. The stupidity of the community is to blame: you think someone is cheating and you dead set on proving it? Fine let him run next time and get real evidence. Get a drones up with some friends. Get someone to run next to him. Anything else is just our human brains looking for patters and finding it even if it’s not there.
  - teliskr 5y ago
    So anytime someone thinks something is dubious, their brain is "looking for patters and finding it even if it’s not there". I disagree, sometimes your brain makes connections and often (but not always) those connections are correct. To most dedicated runners (such as the LetsRun group); this case is pretty obvious. The last paragraph of the article reads pretty conclusive of his guilt. This reminds me of Lance Armstrong. Prior to his outing, I believed Lance Armstrong was innocent of doping. But many serious cyclists told me there was no way he was not doping, and they were right. Expertise is often useful.
  - loeg 5y ago
    The evidence is very concrete if you are vaguely familiar with competitive running. You can't set record times with 33%+ 5k split-to-split variance; if you can set a record time doing that, you could go literally minutes faster with even pacing. The folks at the front are chasing marginal seconds and this guy was leaving minutes on the table and smoking everyone.
code_runner 5y ago
As a runner I love that running is a true meritocracy. Sure, some people can afford better recovery tools etc but performance is the true test. Someone cheating sucks, but nobody deserves to be mobbed and totally ruined. It’s usually people at the “local elite” level as well. The pros who actually make a living running could never get away with it… it’s just people being vain, who in most cases have legitimate talent but feel so much pressure to perform. Nobody is getting rich by cheating. They are primarily cheating themselves. Driving them into the ground helps nobody.
- boringg 5y ago
  And by meritocracy I assume you exclude the genetic lottery we all play from the equation.
  - code_runner 5y ago
    haha yes. I mean "if you run fast, you ran fast". Can't be taken from you if you're out of shape now... if you're in great shape but didn't run fast... you didn't run fast.
- Pulcinella 5y ago
  It’s usually people at the “local elite” level as well. Reminds me of the start of Icarus before it turns into being about international politics. Cyclists spending tons of money on top of the line bikes and tons of doping just to try to win the tri-county cycling race. I wouldn’t say running, even amateur running, is entirely meritocratic. You get a lot of the same behavior, just less outlets for it. (E.g. you can buy this Nike shoes with the carbon fiber panel in them, but besides shoes there is not much you can do to push your performance besides). E.g. You do get people with mysteriously very low times compared to their last race or age group. I don’t think you should be drug testing local races and marathons because it just seems pointless and overkill for what is supposed to be a friendly community competition, but I would say the exact same thing about people who want to win said community competition at all cost.
  - code_runner 5y ago
peter303 5y ago
These days you should require an accused cheater to wear a continuous GPS tracker like Strava.
Handytinge 5y ago
I've never heard of the "Boston Marathon", so I looked it up. It appears to be a non for profit event people run in and often raise money for charities. So my question is, why? Who cares? Why harass this man, actively try and destroy his life and livelihood because he might have cheated. Maybe he did. So what? How does it affect you? The saddest thing here is that people don't have better shit to do than punish this man who likely contributed more to the world than them for a victimless crime.

113 points by georgecmu 5y ago

My perspective on this is a bit different. I used to be a race director for ultra-marathons. I ended up having a serial cheater show up to a couple of my events, and end up winning. The biggest scam was that I comped him a free entry for winning to come back, which happened twice. So that means the legit winner lost out on that, a token amount, maybe $150, but it still, 6+ years on, pisses me off that I was duped. For me it was a huge "Why??" we were a small, regional race, didn't have any status as a qualifier or anything. By all accounts and the subsequent magazine article about the cheater revealed what in hindsight would be some serious mental health issues on his part.

ck2 5y ago

Runners do not tolerate cheaters at all but the way this was handled was ridiculously unacceptable. Since there's no penalty for humiliating someone to death, for the press it's even profitable, so of course that's what ends up happening. Also, anyone who runs knows that website they mention is one of the most toxic places on the internet, not just for running but everything and anything. ala "4chan" (8chan?) It's hundreds, thousands, of teenagers and 20-something boys with complete anonymity and nothing but free time. The website owners do not moderate. So once they get ahold of something to attack, they are going to bully it to death, in this case literally.

daniel-cussen 5y ago
He could have shut them up by running fast with an observer, like they ordered him to repeatedly. This article leaves out a lot of his disqualifications, too. EDIT: And I fail to see any materially objectionable, insulting harassment, meaning beyond calling him out for cheating, which he totally deserved.
- camtarn 5y ago
  You missed this bit? "Meanwhile, on LetsRun, some users had posted contact information for Meza’s employers. A handful of people left negative online reviews for him."
  - daniel-cussen 5y ago
    Oh OK that, yeah, that's harassment.
    - scatters 5y ago
      Is it? Don't his patients have a right to know that he's a fraud?
      - BasDirks 5y ago
        No, they don't have such a right, but everyone has the right to call him out publicly. The key point, for me, is that vengeance is evil. Cheaters should be exposed but not destroyed. Go the full mile to get cheaters banned from competitions and make sure that the record is set straight. Make sure that past winnings and glory is returned and nullified, and leave it at that.
        scatters 5y ago
        I'd argue they absolutely do have that right. A doctor is in a position of immense power and trust, and you need to know that your doctor will be honest if they make mistakes and not try to cover them up. This is a matter of character.
        BasDirks 5y ago
        You gonna tell them if he steals cookies from the cookie jar? I see your point but I ask where you draw the line.
      - Werewolf255 5y ago

WaxedChewbacca 5y ago

jmcgough 5y ago

Hard to know if this guy was guilty or not, but online harassment forums are so toxic and yet there's no laws to really stop them. Reminds me of Near's sad death after years of harassment from kiwifarms (https://kotaku.com/the-brilliant-snes-emulator-creator-known-as-near-has-d-1847182851 https://kotaku.com/the-brilliant-snes-emulator-creator-known...)

jcdavis 5y ago
The dude was 100% cheating, but the internet vigilantism around this was awful. One of the many unfortunate side effects of the largest (english?) running forum being a glorified 4chan run by 2 idiots, one of whom then gets interviewed for this story with next to no discussion of how he enabled it
- hef19898 5y ago
  I remember when I read this story, I think it was on Wired, my first impression was that the guy literally chasing Dr. Meza had at least as many problems as someone cheating and doubling down on his cheating, if not more. Maybe it's because during my active days I was part of a different sports community, but the few self-declared guardians of purity of the sport we had were either ignored or they functionaries. In the latter case, everyone was happy to have someone to organize tournaments, and then they were ignored for the most part. All that was before the internet really took of, so. But those "guardians" of whatever cause are among the most toxic and worst people I know.
  - daniel-cussen 5y ago
    It's super common to hate the referee, in every sport.
    - hef19898 5y ago
      Oh, did I hate some referees. I wasn't referring to referees, so. But the people, either practitioners or not, that have some "higher" goal of keeping whatever sport "pure". Usually not necessarily group consensus, always driven by personal opinion and usually turning into crusades of sorts because, of course, those guardians are right. Referees are just making sure rules are followed.

dfgasdgsd 5y ago

This was such a sad story - everything I read at the time said Dr Meza was a charitable, successful member of the community in LA (running coach, founded programs towards Latino students, etc.). The LetsRun forum is such a wild place - it's a really strange mix of great running news discussion, 4-chan / bodybuilding.com conspiracy theories, and (IMO) a lot of teenage / college male runners who have a lot of angst, and something to prove because they are in an unpopular sport. Moderators/owners (rojo / pojo? or something) don't do anything / actively encourage this.

AdamJMarsh 5y ago
Bodybuilding.com misc & 4chan are super toxic communities. I look back at my teenage years and realised how hazardous they are to mental health. My curiousity & engagement on those communities was limited to infrequent lurking. I now understand why alt-right/q anon movement popped up so quickly. A big issue with these boards is that the ownership can't overmod because these communities are a big drawcard, even if they're financial negatives.
- Ansil849 5y ago
  > Bodybuilding.com misc & 4chan are super toxic communities. Yes, but so are Facebook and Twitter.
  - AdamJMarsh 5y ago
    Communities there can and have been super toxic yes. There is a difference though as those platforms have larger moderation resources though.
    - iamacyborg 5y ago
      I dunno, I just had a weird incident happen last week where a family member of mine received a ton of cyber bullying on Twitter because she’s an actress and has an unusual surname. When I reported stuff Twitter said it wasn’t against their policies.

Reubend 5y ago

It's terrible that people were harassing this man, and that those communities formed a mob mentality against him. But I don't feel particularly sorry for him; he cheated, denied it, threatened to sue people, and then eventually took his own life after his reputation was ruined. Perhaps if he had stopped competing after the first blog post exposing him, things would have de-escalated. Instead, he doubled down on his lies, and made things worse for himself.

bo1024 5y ago
By all accounts (including a friend of mine) he was a wonderful person, mentor, coach, etc. back in the day. It sounds like maybe he developed some mental issues that eventually led to both the cheating and suicide.
- rectang 5y ago
  There are lots of cheaters (and worse) out there with "wonderful" reputations. I feel sorry for Meza — even when self-inflicted, pain is pain — but I'm glad he didn't get away with it. I wish that our world did not reward cheating so regularly and handsomely, and I wish Meza had not chosen to cheat.
probably_wrong 5y ago
I do feel sorry for him, and I think you are being too forgiving to the trolls here. This was not a mere "ruined reputation", but rather a persistent, coordinated mobbing assault big enough that not even a professional PR firm could do anything. Did he cheat? Likely yes. Did he deserve being banned from marathons? Sounds like it. But did he deserve "the pressure, attention, emailing, even trolling" that he got? No, he did not. If I were in his position, I would have also tried to sue.
- throwaway6734 5y ago
  People that break the social contract and then try to gaslight the rest of society when discovered instead of admitting their actions are some of the lowest kinds of people. They corrode social trust. I have no sympathy for this person, they're a snake.

ALittleLight 5y ago

I have a hard time understanding both cheating at a marathon and killing yourself over being discovered to have cheated in marathons. I wonder if there is a relation between the two in terms of the psychology required - an intense desire for public approval.

trgn 5y ago
Same personality that is attracted to a profession with built-in prestige, say doctor or lawyer. This story would be way less believable if he were an artisan of any sort.
- geranim0 5y ago
  how can you cheat at being an artisan
  - daniel-cussen 5y ago
    Lol, I just saw some dude trying to sell Mate cups at crazy prices. They were good cups, though...so I suppose you cheat by selling something that looks like bronze when it's really not? Just sell crap quality.
  - cko 5y ago
    An artisan cheating at marathoning, not a doctor cheating at artisaning.
  - avereveard 5y ago
    well one thing that comes to mind is all the "crafts" on etsy that are just aliexpress flips
  - mardifoufs 5y ago
    Buckle up: https://dallasfood.org/2015/12/mast-brothers-what-lies-behind-the-beards-part-1-tastetexture/ https://dallasfood.org/2015/12/mast-brothers-what-lies-behin...
  - ceejayoz 5y ago

wiradikusuma 5y ago

I'm just wondering if technically and economically we're at the point where we can use drone for each runner from start to finish? Or at least for people who wants it. ("I'm not a cheater, I'll show you") I think the tech for self-navigating drone that follows a person is already mature?

helsinkiandrew 5y ago
The number of participants in many/most marathons would make this an economic and safety nightmare - better would be more checkpoints (perhaps every 1Km) with good video coverage of the runners passing them.
- nsteel 5y ago
  Definitely. I can imagine the sky above a major race almost turning dark as 40,000 drones hover overhead. Sounds very unrealistic (and horrible). More static cameras would suffice. And GPS watch data where available.
  - Beltalowda 5y ago
    Drones are noisy as hell. You'll have to outfit everyone with hearing protection if there's hundreds or thousands of them for hours on end.
- jessaustin 5y ago
  This could make marathons entertaining for a change?
drdrey 5y ago
these drones would need 3+ hours of battery life
- maxden 5y ago
  you could daisy chain them, swapping them in/out

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

mftb 5y ago

I'm an older runner (50+), live in LA. I feel in some sense this story might be near to me, but it might as well be in a parallel universe. I never run in organized events. I specifically run by myself, so I can enjoy my time, free from social pressure. I don't understand any of the players in this whole drama. Most of the time I just feel like an alien from the whole thing, then I go running and feel better.

sonicggg 5y ago

What a wild story. Everybody is taking these amateur events way too seriously. Not just Meza, who went through all the trouble of doing that, and all for social media points. These Internet patrol guys also seem a bit pathetic, like Derek Murphy. They've got way too much time on their hands. Are they also going to report kids that cheat on board games soon?

nsteel 5y ago
> Are they also going to report kids that cheat on board games soon? Perhaps, if those kids start breaking board game records. Fewest number of turns to Monopoly millionaire? Most items placed on the Buckaroo horse? Chess and go games would be better examples. But more seriously, how seriously should people take these events? For those that are actually runners (and not just trolls), running may be there passion and doing well in these (pricey) events might be the highlight of their year. And then they hear others are cheating and I can imagine some would get very angry about that. Same with absolutely anything you invest your resources in.
- InCityDreams 5y ago
  > Are they also going to report kids that cheat on board games soon? If its in a public competition, yes, kids should be outed for cheating. Less publicly...how many families get into it when someone gets caught cheating? If i play cards for pennies with my friends, and one cheats, should nothing be said?
  - rendall 5y ago
    > kids should be outed for cheating Absolutely not. No child should be publicly outed for anything whatsoever. Perhaps quietly disqualified, but I will never find it acceptable to "out" children who make poor decisions.

nano9 5y ago

That Murphy guy behind "MarathonInvestigation" claims to be objective and about the facts, but his Twitter looks like a doxxing blog. You would think this wouldn't be appealing, but he seems to have quit his day job as a financial analyst in order to run his website. Is this content really that profitable?

Werewolf255 5y ago
It's also telling that, in the article, the only thing he suggests he might have done differently is ask people to register on the site. Like user registration was the thing that people were concerned about. Oh and of course, he bears no responsibility. Naturally.

bluecalm 5y ago

A lot of comments focus on how he was "harassed to death". I see it differently. He cheated, didn't admit it when caught, continued to compete and cheat. This is a common situation. You either lose your reputation or continue to deny it and hope it goes away. Every time you cheat you hurt other people. People care about their little competitions, it's often significant part of their lives. If you come there and cheat hurt them. You continue hurting them every time you do it. You build your reputation at the cost of theirs. Courts/law enforcement are a useless avenue when it comes to cheating in sports or games. The only mechanism that works is reputation. He deserved his reputation to be ruined, he deserved to be exposed and humiliated. He could have stopped it all by not competing anymore or you know, at least not cheating. His reputation was more important to him than his life. I respect the choice but it's only his. The community he tried to cheat employed the only defense mechanism that actually works. You learn it's the only mechanism that works if you dealt with bullying, cheating at gambling, cheating in small business deals, cheating in sports, especially amateur ones. There is nothing else you can use to fight cheating/abuse. It's true the abuser often never admits wrongdoing until they are exposed publicly and humiliated. They hope it never gets to that point and they are often right. The same way the school bully doesn't face consequences, someone who stole something small from a friend doesn't or someone who cheated you in a poker game. When they do get exposed they often blame their victims - true bully style. When I read the article I think about the victims. People who competed with him just so ego of a cheater could be satisfied and who beared the frustration of being helpless and officials ignoring their concerns for too long. The article also mentions one of the most common and naive mistakes people make when accessing character: "Everyone who knew him testified to his generosity, modesty, and sense of justice." It's very easy and common for successful people to be generous and offer "sense of justice" to the community. I've seen this tens of times in the gambling world. You're successful, you are admired, you share your knowledge with others, help them, are asked to help when resolving disputes. You're well respected and feed of it. Then a day comes when things turn around. You either got caught cheating or the one edge you have becomes known and it's no longer there. Your results suffer and then it starts: you scam someone in a deal, you stop picking up calls from people who lend you money, you are suddenly involved in more and more shadiness. It's just very difficult to judge someone's character when things are going well for them. Even violent drug dealer were often loved in their communities. It's just how people behave. It's easy, it's rewarding. It doesn't say much about your character. It's a long rant about something I have dealt a lot with during my life from early years to adulthood. In business, in gambling, in sports, in little in group competitions for status. I know the community usually sides with the abuser/cheater. They are the popular one and it's just easier. He deserved his reputation to be ruined. For him it was more important than his life. Please don't blame the victims for his choices.

daniel-cussen 5y ago

The spin they put on this is incredible. Doesn't talk about all his disqualifications and that the Marathon declared his times objectively impossible. Guy cheats like crazy, crazy bad, objectively. The article puts a different spin on it but it was objective, not accused of cheating, cheater. Oh, oh, but he's a doctor. Doctor's don't cheat, they're super honest, the community, gives away money, good person good person! They don't even do that much to get at him, they just ask him to prove it. I don't see it as harassment. He put himself in the spotlight when he ran those crazy times. Keep in mind, if this guy actually had actually run even one of his times for real, it would have been an opportunity to challenge the best. Just run one more marathon, or not even, just 5K at that same speed. A chance at the bigtime! This happened with the Wright Brothers, the press actually did harass them in that case, but everyone said they were "Flyers or Liars". It was an opportunity! Well the Wright Brothers were Flyers. Frank Meza was a liar. And when the Wright Brothers did fly in front of all those journalists they became the most famous people in the world! Meza had so many opportunities to admit he cheated. And he had the choice (obviously not but hypothetically) of running like he said he did! They gave him that out! Nobody looks at the people he cheated, he didn't cheat the marathon, he cheated other runners, real people came in one slot later, there was a real 70-74 year old who actually had merit that could have come in first and made the news, except for Frank Meza. It's just not the same to be declared a winner after the fact, by disqualification especially if the cheater never admits it. And runners just hate the cheaters, this is so much worse than steroids, teleporters ruin the sport on another level. And never admits it, with so much proof! Like he tried running even half as fast as he said he did and he ends up cardiac problems! Headline should say "Marathon Cheater Frank Meza Kills Himself to Avoid Admitting It". There's life after death. In a parallel universe, he respawned in like a psych ward (typically) and it's twice as bad, I guess they treat him better in the ward because he's a doctor but he still lives his life out in shame as a fraud. Probably then his life really does fall apart, people going through everything he's done with a fine-toothed comb, and find all sorts of stuff. Nobody cheats exclusively in the cases they're caught. He just spent his whole life asking people to kiss up to him, well where he respawned I can tell you there is absolutely none of that.

rendall 5y ago
A careful reading, especially to the end, shows that the writer is certain that Meza cheated. And yet respects and has empathy for him and his family, despite that. Meza was much more than his worst moment, as are we all.

tomovo 5y ago

Looks like they only came up with solid evidence after he died. Harrasment based on mere suspicion was unfair. Poor guy had a character flaw. Did they ever run along to actually verify? Nah, too lazy, just blame him and see what happens.

emptyfile 5y ago
He was literally disqualified multiple times from races before that including a lifetime ban from a marathon he cheated at... then he went to LA marathon where he wasn't banned, but had to run with an observer, and still ran without an observer to set the world record in his age group... Did posters just stopped reading articles on HN?
- tomovo 5y ago
  You're accusing me of not reading the article. Where does it mention hard evidence of cheating before his death? Suspicious splits are not evidence. Not running with an observer is just that. I get that people get mad at cheaters but without evidence it's unfair to harrass people. Even asking them to "prove" their ability is harrasment. That's all.
  - emptyfile 5y ago
    He was literally supposed to run with an observer(because he's a cheater and can't be trusted) and he didn't, several times. How is that not cheating? >In 2015 the L.A. Marathon must have noticed something fishy because officials asked him to run with an observer in the future. But when he returned in 2017, he ran alone, the observer idea apparently forgotten. He also ran solo in 2018 and 2019. >So Murphy and the LetsRun crew grumbled when the L.A. Marathon announced in early June that it would not disqualify Meza from the 2019 race. >Instead, officials would ask him—again—to run with an observer next time around. “This is the best solution for all,” they told Murphy. They're literally begging the guy to stop cheating so they don't have to ban him, and the guys does a world record. It's beyond ridiculous. Instead of admitting it, he kills himself. I'm sorry, the whole story is tragic, but obviously this guy's problems went far beyond evil posters on letsrun, as awful as that site is.

prettyStandard 5y ago

It's called anomic suicide.

teliskr 5y ago

As a mid-40s marathoner, this is really interesting to me. I don't feel sorry for him; other than that he lived life with an ego condition allowing him to do this. That is sad, but he earned the scrutiny and outing. Right now, I'm running 50+ miles a week training for a marathon. That is really hard and a major commitment. I won't set any records, but I have a good shot at placing in my age group. I don't run to win anything or achieve a certain place, but I would be somewhat pissed off if some idiot like this cheated and beat me. I enjoy most of the time that I spend running, but to get to this level, you have to go through a pretty difficult level of training which makes all of your life a lot more stressful during the periods of intense training. Right now, I'm staying in a job that I don't like because the schedule is very flexible and allows me to spend around 15 hours a week training.

martimarkov 5y ago
As the article pointed out - there was no concrete evidence beyond doubt. The stupidity of the community is to blame: you think someone is cheating and you dead set on proving it? Fine let him run next time and get real evidence. Get a drones up with some friends. Get someone to run next to him. Anything else is just our human brains looking for patters and finding it even if it’s not there.
- teliskr 5y ago
  So anytime someone thinks something is dubious, their brain is "looking for patters and finding it even if it’s not there". I disagree, sometimes your brain makes connections and often (but not always) those connections are correct. To most dedicated runners (such as the LetsRun group); this case is pretty obvious. The last paragraph of the article reads pretty conclusive of his guilt. This reminds me of Lance Armstrong. Prior to his outing, I believed Lance Armstrong was innocent of doping. But many serious cyclists told me there was no way he was not doping, and they were right. Expertise is often useful.
- loeg 5y ago
  The evidence is very concrete if you are vaguely familiar with competitive running. You can't set record times with 33%+ 5k split-to-split variance; if you can set a record time doing that, you could go literally minutes faster with even pacing. The folks at the front are chasing marginal seconds and this guy was leaving minutes on the table and smoking everyone.

code_runner 5y ago

As a runner I love that running is a true meritocracy. Sure, some people can afford better recovery tools etc but performance is the true test. Someone cheating sucks, but nobody deserves to be mobbed and totally ruined. It’s usually people at the “local elite” level as well. The pros who actually make a living running could never get away with it… it’s just people being vain, who in most cases have legitimate talent but feel so much pressure to perform. Nobody is getting rich by cheating. They are primarily cheating themselves. Driving them into the ground helps nobody.

boringg 5y ago
And by meritocracy I assume you exclude the genetic lottery we all play from the equation.
- code_runner 5y ago
  haha yes. I mean "if you run fast, you ran fast". Can't be taken from you if you're out of shape now... if you're in great shape but didn't run fast... you didn't run fast.
Pulcinella 5y ago
It’s usually people at the “local elite” level as well. Reminds me of the start of Icarus before it turns into being about international politics. Cyclists spending tons of money on top of the line bikes and tons of doping just to try to win the tri-county cycling race. I wouldn’t say running, even amateur running, is entirely meritocratic. You get a lot of the same behavior, just less outlets for it. (E.g. you can buy this Nike shoes with the carbon fiber panel in them, but besides shoes there is not much you can do to push your performance besides). E.g. You do get people with mysteriously very low times compared to their last race or age group. I don’t think you should be drug testing local races and marathons because it just seems pointless and overkill for what is supposed to be a friendly community competition, but I would say the exact same thing about people who want to win said community competition at all cost.
- code_runner 5y ago

peter303 5y ago

These days you should require an accused cheater to wear a continuous GPS tracker like Strava.

Handytinge 5y ago

I've never heard of the "Boston Marathon", so I looked it up. It appears to be a non for profit event people run in and often raise money for charities. So my question is, why? Who cares? Why harass this man, actively try and destroy his life and livelihood because he might have cheated. Maybe he did. So what? How does it affect you? The saddest thing here is that people don't have better shit to do than punish this man who likely contributed more to the world than them for a victimless crime.