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I'd love for this to be true, but it does conflict with various state policy decisions on the matter that seem to indicate at least a belief in the opposite. Fr

I'd love for this to be true, but it does conflict with various state policy decisions on the matter that seem to indicate at least a belief in the opposite. France's policy is particularly striking, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_paternity_testing#France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_paternity_testing#France It is possible that state institutions make these policies based exactly on my assumption above, which seems like it could be incorrect. Or perhaps even 1-2% is still enough to cause significant social cost if easily exposed.

quirkot 5y ago
In France, when you get married or have a kid you get a family book and it is the official record of your family. If you don't put a kid in, they don't have the same rights and vice versa. Really leans into the "family is a social construct" angle
nicolas_t 5y ago
France is incredibly regressive and conservative when it comes to anything related to genetics. For example, for people doing IVF, it's not allowed to test the embryos for viability. The argument is that such testing is too close to eugenics, so instead women doing IVF cannot get any guarantees that the embryos are viable and it makes the procedure harder. Doing a DNA test for yourself is also illegal... Surrogacy is also not legal in France because “Any agreement, even if it does not provide for remuneration, whereby a woman agrees to conceive, bear and give birth to a child and then renounce it, is contrary to public order, the inviolability of the human body and the personal status of a natural person.” So I wouldn't put much stoke into the policies of France on this matter
- elzbardico 5y ago
  Maybe they are not incredibly regressive and conservative. Maybe they are different. You may not agree with their position but it is very imperialistic to suppose that any custom or law which is not exactly as it is in America must be considered backwards.
  - nicolas_t 5y ago
    For the record, I'm French not American, voting for politicians to change those laws is one of my many deciding factors when choosing which politicians to vote for and I have a sister who had to do IVF so my close family was directly impacted by those nonsensical laws. My mum and her sister also broke the law by ordering two DNA test to confirm a long standing theory that my mum's father was not her biological father (her non-biological father had never hugged her and was always much colder towards her than towards her sister so having a confirmation of that was a relief for my mum) Anyway, I do hope that I'm not being imperialistic when I criticize laws of my own country.
- Scaevolus 5y ago
  Surrogacy is perhaps not the best example of French conservatism. Curiously, only the USA and formerly Soviet countries permit paid surrogacy, and even altruistic surrogacy is illegal in much of the EU, including Germany, Spain, Switzerland, Austria, and Italy.
  - nicolas_t 5y ago
    True, the main reason I talked about it is because a) it's also part of the same discourse related to bioethics, the legal reasoning in France has the same component as the legal reasoning around euthanasia, paternity testing and dna test in that it doesn't recognize the rights of people to dispose of their own body. b) When my sister was trying to do IVF and didn't get results for years, they were investigating the possibility of doing surrogacy abroad c) I voted for Macron, among many reasons, because he was more open minded about surrogacy than his opponents. I can see an argument against paid surrogacy but making altruistic surrogacy illegal is something I disagree vehemently. But then again, I'm also very much in disagreement about the French legislation against prostitution (interestingly most organizations of sex workers or organizations that are implicated in helping sex workers are also against the law there too)
Dylan16807 5y ago
I don't see the conflict. Whether you're looking at 70M population or 10-15M kids, 1-2% of that is a lot of people.

quirkot 5y ago

In France, when you get married or have a kid you get a family book and it is the official record of your family. If you don't put a kid in, they don't have the same rights and vice versa. Really leans into the "family is a social construct" angle

nicolas_t 5y ago

France is incredibly regressive and conservative when it comes to anything related to genetics. For example, for people doing IVF, it's not allowed to test the embryos for viability. The argument is that such testing is too close to eugenics, so instead women doing IVF cannot get any guarantees that the embryos are viable and it makes the procedure harder. Doing a DNA test for yourself is also illegal... Surrogacy is also not legal in France because “Any agreement, even if it does not provide for remuneration, whereby a woman agrees to conceive, bear and give birth to a child and then renounce it, is contrary to public order, the inviolability of the human body and the personal status of a natural person.” So I wouldn't put much stoke into the policies of France on this matter

elzbardico 5y ago
Maybe they are not incredibly regressive and conservative. Maybe they are different. You may not agree with their position but it is very imperialistic to suppose that any custom or law which is not exactly as it is in America must be considered backwards.
- nicolas_t 5y ago
  For the record, I'm French not American, voting for politicians to change those laws is one of my many deciding factors when choosing which politicians to vote for and I have a sister who had to do IVF so my close family was directly impacted by those nonsensical laws. My mum and her sister also broke the law by ordering two DNA test to confirm a long standing theory that my mum's father was not her biological father (her non-biological father had never hugged her and was always much colder towards her than towards her sister so having a confirmation of that was a relief for my mum) Anyway, I do hope that I'm not being imperialistic when I criticize laws of my own country.
Scaevolus 5y ago
Surrogacy is perhaps not the best example of French conservatism. Curiously, only the USA and formerly Soviet countries permit paid surrogacy, and even altruistic surrogacy is illegal in much of the EU, including Germany, Spain, Switzerland, Austria, and Italy.
- nicolas_t 5y ago
  True, the main reason I talked about it is because a) it's also part of the same discourse related to bioethics, the legal reasoning in France has the same component as the legal reasoning around euthanasia, paternity testing and dna test in that it doesn't recognize the rights of people to dispose of their own body. b) When my sister was trying to do IVF and didn't get results for years, they were investigating the possibility of doing surrogacy abroad c) I voted for Macron, among many reasons, because he was more open minded about surrogacy than his opponents. I can see an argument against paid surrogacy but making altruistic surrogacy illegal is something I disagree vehemently. But then again, I'm also very much in disagreement about the French legislation against prostitution (interestingly most organizations of sex workers or organizations that are implicated in helping sex workers are also against the law there too)

Dylan16807 5y ago

I don't see the conflict. Whether you're looking at 70M population or 10-15M kids, 1-2% of that is a lot of people.