26 ms·

I live in the country with the most expensive Apple products on the planet

121 points by vaghetti 5y ago

zenosmosis 5y ago
I live in Nicaragua and they are pretty expensive here. 14" Macbook Pro with M1 Pro, 16GB / 1TB set me back $3350 USD.
- vaghetti 5y ago
  https://themacindex.com/variants/MKGT3/macbook-pro-14-inch-m1-1tb?currency=USD https://themacindex.com/variants/MKGT3/macbook-pro-14-inch-m... It can always get worse :)
  - dhosek 5y ago
    Fascinating site—I was surprised to see Thailand as the cheapest country on the list, although I realize that I know nothing about their trade policies.
    - wtmt 5y ago
      That site, shows the prices (in Thailand and elsewhere) by default with tax refunds. I presume that to be the tax refunds for short term travelers in that country who buy things there, and not applicable to ordering online from there and getting it shipped. AFAIK, a few countries (including countries like Australia and Canada) have such tax refunds above a specific amount of spending for some specific categories of spending.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    I was thinking that a $3000+ anything from Apple just doesn't sound mind blowing. Then again, I'm always one to play the game of max everything out on Apple's new thing, and then think about how many other things that could buy. Regional differences apply, but you could easily buy a really decent car for some Apple gear maxed out (think MacPro) or just a daily beater for the price of a maxed out MBP laptop. The fact the new M1Ultra maxed is <$10k was a bit shocking.
    - wtmt 5y ago
      I find the comparison with a car a bit amusing, though I get your point. Usually, a car spends more than 95% of the time parked somewhere, whereas a smartphone or a computer are usually used for at least a few hours everyday. I’m not saying that cars are useless in comparison. It’s just that they’re not even near the same category on what they offer to the user.
      - dylan604 5y ago
        Just for the lulz, I just maxed out a MacPro: $52,299. I know I'm cheap and what not, but there's not many things in my world that costs $52k. A car is the most relatable thing in that price range to me, so that's where I turn. I'm guessing for some of you overpaid SV types <ducks>, that's just an average night at the club. We all relate to things differently.
elvenodid 5y ago
This makes me wonder how many industries stay underdeveloped due to high hardware prices. Think of Nigeria movie industry, Brazilian game industry, or even the worldwide impact of high gpu prices due to crypto mining and scarce chips.
teaearlgraycold 5y ago
Won't this soon be Russia now that Apple has cut all sales with the country?
- dylan604 5y ago
  Russia will be the new Cuba with phone tech 50 years old instead of cars. Or, they'll just keep supplying from China and not really notice
  - dhosek 5y ago
    That assumes that the situation will last 50 years. Cuba has been embargoed by the US for so long because its oligarchs all moved to Florida and Texas and took their money with them and have bought themselves some American democracy with it. My cynical side thinks that the worst case scenario (short of nukes or full-scale WWIII) where Russia essentially annexes Ukraine like China did Tibet will eventually lead to roughly the same consequences for Russia that the Chinese annexation of Tibet did for China.
    - gerikson 5y ago
      Except Ukraine has 10x the population of Tibet and a land border with EU countries...
    - laurent92 5y ago
      When industrial partnerships are broken, there is no incentive to go back. No trust either, neither from the two sides, neither from companies to government not to shut down the transaction again at the first whim.
    - pmontra 5y ago
      My bet is that once Russia is on a black list for everything China is going to keep Russia on a leash. Buy enough from them in yuan to keep them alive, sell to them to get those yuans back, don't make them so rich to be able to rebuild a really worrisome army. And who'll be in the Cremlin will still rule over all of Russia and be rich and happy. I'd like to hear from someone in Russia to understand if this is a credible endgame.
d136o 5y ago
While working on a BigCo product that produced invoices to advertisers in different countries I learned that there are different local laws around invoicing and how a final price is shown to a customer. In the US all prices in our application were exclusive of taxes, which were added after a total cost for customer was computed. For Brazil, a multi month and multi team effort ensued to assure variable tax rates could be applied to different customers and so a only a final price/cost inclusive of “taxes” would be shown to advertisers. … this makes me wonder if taxes/“cost of doing business” is the true cause (something the author waves away without data, and which I don’t have either :) …
dhosek 5y ago
Even before I clicked the link, I was sure the answer was Brazil. It's not so much the taxes that raise the prices as the tariffs (which are kind of invisible taxes in that they are paid through higher prices rather than directly—which is part of what made a former president's boasting about raising tariffs somewhat absurd. It seemed he believed that the exporting country paid the price of the tariffs and not domestic consumers in the form of higher prices). I remember that there were plans to build a Foxconn factory in Brazil specifically to manufacture iPhones for the Brazilian market because of the tariffs (I don't know if this ever happened, I think maybe it did?).
- stavros 5y ago
  > what made a former president's boasting about raising tariffs somewhat absurd Wow, how does a president think this?
  - lordnacho 5y ago
    IME this is one of the most common economic misconceptions that people have, to think that the economic cost of a tax is borne by whoever nominally pays it. Most people with no economics background will for example think that it's just companies that pay salary related taxes, or consumers who pay VAT. Those are both true in the accounting sense that the money is paid by those respective parties to the government but not in the economic sense of who would have the extra money if there were no tax.
    - stavros 5y ago
      My dad had the same reaction when I told him that we'd pay the extra credit card fees. He said "the merchant pays those" and didn't seem to get my "where do you think the merchant gets the money from?" reply.
      - afiori 5y ago
        While all the money is coming from the customers this changes which customers pay and more and which pay less. The guy buying a whole month of grocery will pay less with (fair) explicit fees, the guy buying a single redbull would pay more. Personally my problem with credit card fees is that they are generally not advertised and the costumer should easily be able to know how much they are going to get charged even before the checkout or ordering (this obviously applies to non VAT-included prices). Merchants on the other hand should reject non-profitable payment options (in my country it is quite rude to try to pay a coffe with a visa/mastercard)
emadabdulrahim 5y ago
Same as in Egypt. Prices for Apple products are nuts over there.
wtmt 5y ago
A few comments on this from an Indian perspective. Apple products are quite expensive here too, when compared against U.S. prices (plus sales tax). It may seem as if this is because of customs duties, but that’s not the entire story. Many companies tend to have geographically differentiated pricing to expand their market and make more money. Even if the prices aren’t completely matching the local currency equivalent (with respect to USD) and local conditions, they would have some compensation applied. Apple has historically been against differentiated pricing, especially for its hardware. It also focuses heavily on retaining its 35% (approx.) profit margins. Only on a few services has Apple reduced pricing in the recent years in some countries (for example, in India, Apple Arcade, Apple TV+ and Apple Music are priced at nearly one fourth of the U.S. prices, but iCloud is priced the same as in the U.S.). I’m not saying that all Apple hardware products are sold at the USD price plus local customs duties and taxes in other regions, but almost all of them are. What’s more ridiculous is that the prices don’t go down much even when Apple is assembling products locally and doesn’t have to pay as much in duties (a few iPhone models are assembled in India). Since Apple has this business model, people in India who do know of someone coming from the U.S. or Dubai or another country/location where these are cheaper ask them to purchase those there and bring them down. There are several “Bring me this from there (BMTFT)” groups on social media to connect people. For individual travelers the duty free limit (legal) plus duty evasion (not legal) in certain cases offer big incentives not to buy locally. I’m sure there’s plenty of organized smuggling also going on. Whatever metrics Apple is tracking on sales by country get skewed by this, tilting heavily towards U.S. and other countries and making them seem larger than they are, while also making the countries with typically weaker currencies and higher duties seem as smaller markets than they are. (I know Apple can get country wise usage numbers from its telemetry in iOS, the App Store and other Apple apps)
- vrdmn 5y ago
  > Whatever metrics Apple is tracking on sales by country get skewed by this, tilting heavily towards U.S. and other countries and making them seem larger than they are, while also making the countries with typically weaker currencies and higher duties seem as smaller markets than they are. They can most likely see analytics on which country is using how many of their devices. Where the device was bought would be just one metric. Where the device is being mostly used would be the more important metric here.
gnicholas 5y ago
I would imagine local laws regarding warranties would also affect pricing. For example, in the US you get one year of warranty, and that's it. In some other countries, there are longer mandatory warranty periods for expensive items. Presumably part of the reason Apple products are more expensive in those countries is that they are on the hook for more warranty service. Interestingly, this means Apple might not care that foreign tourists snap up Apple products when visiting the US. They might claim that those products don't qualify for the enhanced local warranty when the tourists return to their home countries. /speculation
- laurencerowe 5y ago
  I don't think better warranties explain it. In Europe where 2 year warranties are mandated UK prices for a MacBook Pro 14 base model (after excluding 20% VAT) are only 3.6% higher than the US price while German prices (after excluding 19% VAT) are 14% lower at current exchange rates. The Brazilian cash price (10% less than the headline price which includes financing on the Apple store) seems to be 25% higher than the US price after accounting for 17% sales tax and 60% import duty.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    >> In Europe where 2 year warranties are mandated UK prices for a MacBook Pro 14 base model In UK all Apple products come with a 1 year warranty. Yes the consumer rights act gives you the right to have a product repaired or replaced(by the seller) if it becomes faulty due to manufacturing defects in 2 years after purchase....but after the initial 6 months it's the consumer who has to demonstrate that the fault is a result of manufacturing defect. If you can't demonstrate that then the seller doesn't have to repair your product. It's absolutely not the same as a warranty.
    - bigDinosaur 5y ago
      One must remember that Apple is notorious for refusing to repair certain defects within their one year warranty until the relevant class action or sufficient media coverage occurs, so the extent to which their warranty is a 'real' warranty can be somewhat debated. Anyway, it's absolutely known as a 'statutory warranty' in places like Australia https://www.apple.com/au/legal/statutory-warranty/au/ https://www.apple.com/au/legal/statutory-warranty/au/ and people certainly get things repaired based on an expectation for the lifetime of a product, without having to prove that it was a manufacturing defect.
milkers 5y ago
Come to Turkey, here Apple prices are cheaper than Eggplant prices.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
pjmlp 5y ago
I am lucky enough to live in a country that isn't that bad, however all the Apple stuff I ever owned, wasn't mine rather provided by work/custormer's project.
low_tech_love 5y ago
There is one other important factor that is seldom discussed: inequality. Even being so expensive, they still sell enough to make good profits, because there is enough rich people in Brazil to buy them once a year. Brazil has one of the higher inequalities in the world and while it’s common to say Brazil is poor, the truth is that there is a shitload of very rich people too (it’s more than 200M people after all). I’m sure things would change if people simply stopped buying them (or couldn’t afford).
- tomxor 5y ago
  ^this In most countries Apple's market is the top 1%
  - dan-robertson 5y ago
    This sentence looks plausible, but easy to misinterpret by reading it incorrectly. For example, I think most Apple device users are middle-income Americans or middle-high income people from other developed countries.
    - oblio 5y ago
      Most countries are poor and Apple devices are expensive. Why are you hacknernews-splaining their comment when it's obvious what they meant?
    - low_tech_love 5y ago
      In America yes, and also in Europe for example. I come from Brazil and live in northern Europe and having an iPhone here means absolutely nothing because everyone can afford it, even though it is still expensive. It’s simply that the gap between rich and poor is small, so you get to play the same game. But in an extremely unequal place like Brazil the economy works differently. It’s like a tug of war where 1% from one side pull as strongly as the rest on the other side. There is a huge gap in-between, and the same deals sometimes won’t work on both sides.
    - throwamon 5y ago
windex 5y ago
Some parts of this price ecosystem would have looked different if Samsung had decided to straighten up their act and not shovel out crapware, adware, and nagware with their so called "Updates" for their lower end phones. It's a lost opportunity for Samsung. Apple gets to do this because their devices seem safer, easier, and faster to use right now.
- MaxikCZ 5y ago
  I bought samsung earbuds. They worked flawlessly. From time to time, a software update comes. Every single time I look into change log only to read "Improved stability and security". Few updates ago, when I took out my buds, only one was playing. Till today I need to disconnect and connect my buds to make them both work. If only they would just leave the things as they were, or gave me option to rollback.. So much for "Improved stability and security" I guess. I'll never buy a Samsung headphones again.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    Oh, just be happy they do not have (yet) updated to integrate advertisement into them.
    - Bouncingsoul1 5y ago
      If these are Bluetooth LE devices they surely integrated advertisement, it just means something different in this context and could actually explain the technical problem which the parent had.
      - hutzlibu 5y ago
        Doing satire is hard, when reality is way ahead with all the bad things that can happen.
  - kalleboo 5y ago
    TBF, I had similar issues with only one ear connecting with my AirPods (gen1). The only difference is the software updates are silent and happen in the background with zero update notes.
protontorpedo 5y ago
I lived in Brazil, and my well-off friends bought their Macs smuggled from Paraguay. Still, at Paraguay prices a MacBook Pro used to cost about 10x the minimum wage.
Synaesthesia 5y ago
Apple products are so expensive here in South Africa. And we don't have as much disposable cash as Americans/westerners. So yeah adoption is hindered. They don't even try to be competitive unlike Samsung and Huawei do here.
ksec 5y ago
iPhone 13 cost R$ 7,599.00, or Roughly $1500 in USD. Compared to $799 in US. On a 30% Import Tax, and a maximum of VAT for Import product alone makes it ~$1250 already. For unstable currency ( comparatively speaking ) Apple tends to hedge at least 15% rate, that makes it around $1437. Apple tends to add a few pcenctage more for those countries with extra consumer protection. ( As in EUR ). So I dont think it is that far off at all.
- lozenge 5y ago
  You call it the unstable currency adjustment, somebody else can call it the "phone is already unaffordable, let's go further to make it a luxury status symbol" adjustment.
  - ksec 5y ago
    The phone is a luxury status symbol with or without those adjustment anyway.
  - acchow 5y ago
    But the same iPhone 13 in India costs 1048 USD, which is almost completely explained by their 22.5% tariffs. So why doesn't Apple apply your supposed "luxury adjustment" in India? Why only in Brazil?
fareesh 5y ago
My friends in California enjoy railing against systemic racism except when it's a system that results in my fellow Indians and myself paying more money for the same iPhone. Obviously it's because of import duties and taxes which have nothing to do with Apple, but I'm sure the richest company in the world that is committed to the cause of social justice can find a way to make the pricing fair ;)
Brajeshwar 5y ago
Ah! Today morning, I woke up to the news of the new Apple products everywhere including Hackernews. As usual, for the kicks, I tried customizing the total spec-out version of the Apple Mac Studio. This is costlier than most typical cars on Indian roads. And the Mac Studio cost do not include the keyboard, mouse, and monitor which is needed to make it the bare minimum usable computer. https://twitter.com/brajeshwar/status/1501440907295752193 https://twitter.com/brajeshwar/status/1501440907295752193
- andai 5y ago
  That's about 9000 euro, about the same as the "trashcan mac" (i forget the marketing name) when they were still selling them. I think this one is a bit faster though :)
  - Brajeshwar 5y ago
    Well, there was a hearty discussion when Apple opened their online store win India (Sep 23, 2020). The fully spec-out Mac Pro cost more than a typical home in most Indian city sub-urban area. I made peace that day by earmarking the day with my first purchase -- an Apple Watch Band. ;-) Check it out https://twitter.com/brajeshwar/status/1308632105711095809 https://twitter.com/brajeshwar/status/1308632105711095809
- droopyEyelids 5y ago
  Its more expensive than many cars on the road in the USA! “25% of cars on the road are are at least 16 years old” https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/28/25percent-of-cars-in-us-are-at-least-sixteen-years-old----record-high.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/28/25percent-of-cars-in-us-are-... A 16 year old car that people drive not usually worth $10k.
ArcMex 5y ago
Also in my country, very expensive. Therefore, I order from Apple USA directly and import through courier. The exchange rate, courier fee and 15 day arrival 'delay' are much more tolerable than what I would pay for locally at the 'iStore'.
meerita 5y ago
I think in Argentina they're expensive than brazil. Argentina has a lockdown on dollars actives so it's hard to get dollars to buy such imported products.
thewileyone 5y ago
Different countries have different import duties, which are "hidden" costs for foreign products. It's possible that these types of tariffs cause Apple stuff to be more expensive in Brazil.
secondcoming 5y ago
I recently had to upgrade my really old iPad. I'm not exactly poor but I went for a pretty cheap model as I couldn't mentally justify the prices of the higher end models. The iPad is the only Apple device I'm willing to buy, it's great.
IYasha 5y ago
Why whould anyone care about garbage prices? ) If you wanted some justifiably expensive hardware, buy Sun! Oh, wait, it doesn't exist anymore... (
skocznymroczny 5y ago
My Brazilian friend asked me to recommend her a laptop given her budget. It was certainly an interesting experience. Not only the laptops were much more expensive than they would be in other parts of the world, but also they were older models, with HDDs and 4GB of RAM instead of more up to date models going with SSDs and 8GB of RAM (or more).
- gavinray 5y ago
  Did you consider buying one in the US (or wherever you are/online) and then mailing it to them? I recently was going to mail a new Mac M1 to a university student in a foreign country. I found services that specialized in it that would do it for $99, FWIW
  - q3k 5y ago
    ... $99 plus all applicable taxes and duties on the item you're importing.
ankaAr 5y ago
Laughs in Argentinian.. Brazil most expensive Apple products.. , yes.. Still laughing
arepublicadoceu 5y ago
In Brazil the start model of the new iPhone SE starts at 4200 brl or 835 usd, according to google. The most famous apple joke in Brazil is that it's cheaper to go to US buy a top of the line iPhone, do some tourism and return to Brazil than buying it here.
- warp 5y ago
  Seems to be common practice here in Ecuador as well. Ordering stuff online from anywhere outside of Ecuador is kind of a last resort, because of very high import duties for many items (and a small but real risk of your items getting "lost" by customs). However if you are bringing that stuff back on a flight, that's exempt from import duties if you stick to the 2-item limit (e.g. don't come back with a suitcase full of iPhones, but if you're traveling back with your existing old phone and a new phone for yourself, that is allowed). If you're rich enough to afford an iPhone here, you're not buying locally. You plan a shopping trip to Miami once or twice a year, the ticket cost is basically evened out by the savings of all the stuff you're buying in the USA and many people have family there as well they can visit (which is an extra reason to travel, and you're not staying in a hotel).
spacexsucks 5y ago
fleddr 5y ago
It's a long time ago but I once made a business trip to Brazil where local colleagues attempted to explain the reason behind these high prices. I don't remember everything but one example stuck with me: the government forcing the shipment of the incoming goods into a particular harbor that is far away from the end destination, as an attempt to provide them work, and perhaps apply local tariffs. Next, this product needs to be shipped again, probably by air, to the place it needs to be. So it's the distribution of work for the sake of work, keeping each other busy I guess. The other odd thing I noticed back then is electronics that exist nowhere else. For example, an electronics company you may only know for their TVs suddenly also has laptops and phones. But only in Brazil. I guess they are white label products that are rebranded, as part of the "wealth signaling" the author talked about.
fortran77 5y ago
The last thing I'd want to do when out and about in Brazil is "wealth signal."
- wyclif 5y ago
  Displaying an iPhone in Rio is likely to get you robbed.
Mikeb85 5y ago
Countries like India and Brazil are so stratified in terms of wealth that you essentially have people who have no chance of affording it, ever, and people with the same or more disposable income as those in the west. So the strategy is to simply get as much as possible out of the 'rich' people who will buy it as a status symbol.
ilove196884 5y ago
There is joke here that I as an India would like to share. For the price of the latest iPhone to be bought from a store in India , it is cheaper to buy a two way flight ticket to the UAE , buy the iPhone and bring it back.
acchow 5y ago
> “Yeah, Apple’s products are pretty good, probably the best depending on what you need from them, but at the end of the day they are not that different from the cheaper alternatives and not really worth the extra money unless you have a lot to spare”. Which, it seems to me, is pretty much what you are going to hear from most people about Apple products anywhere in the world. This could not be further from the truth. I imagine the number of people who think iPhones are the superior product outnumber the number of people who don't really care, and I'd be among them.
Pmop 5y ago
I still think the reason are custom duties (which I think is something immoral), and anything else is just a consequence. Buying an Apple product from elsewhere is more expensive than buying one here. If that wasn't the case, people would just import the products, and the local businesses would have to adjust or risk bankruptcy.
gwmnxnp_516a 5y ago
Brazil has only itself to blame. Not only Apple products, but several other technology items are pretty expensive due to the VAT (Value Added Taxes), namely, ICMS - state vat tax, IPI - federal vat tax for manufactured products, IOF - federal government tax that incurs on financial trasactions, and high import tariffs. All tariffs and taxes almost doubles the price of everything imported and whenever a product is sold to a distributor and the final seller, state and federal VAT taxes adds up increasing the price even further. Unlike the global north, most of taxes revenues in Brazil come from VAT taxes since brazilian middle class is not willing to pay higher income tax and at the same time they want US-style taxes and European-like lifestyle, such as ree healthcare and free college that are paid in Europe mostly through income tax revenues and dividend tax revenues. So despite higher taxes, it it is not that bad for the upper class and those who can afford Apple gadgets as they would have to pay higher income taxes if they moved to Europe, US or other countries. In Brazil even dividends are not taxed, while in US and Erope they are taxed and companies have to use stock buybacks in order to avoid double taxation.
nextaccountic 5y ago
Brazil also has world's most expensive cars. We build cars in Brazilian factories and sell them in other countries cheaper than we sell in the local market. https://www.automotiveworld.com/uncategorised/89068-brazil-home-to-the-world-s-most-expensive-cars/ https://www.automotiveworld.com/uncategorised/89068-brazil-h... And the reason for that is.. that we pay the price. For some reason we accept to pay a higher price than any other country, even though there's a lot of competition (maybe the companies form a cartel here? But why here and not in the rest of the world?)

121 points by vaghetti 5y ago

zenosmosis 5y ago

I live in Nicaragua and they are pretty expensive here. 14" Macbook Pro with M1 Pro, 16GB / 1TB set me back $3350 USD.

vaghetti 5y ago
https://themacindex.com/variants/MKGT3/macbook-pro-14-inch-m1-1tb?currency=USD https://themacindex.com/variants/MKGT3/macbook-pro-14-inch-m... It can always get worse :)
- dhosek 5y ago
  Fascinating site—I was surprised to see Thailand as the cheapest country on the list, although I realize that I know nothing about their trade policies.
  - wtmt 5y ago
    That site, shows the prices (in Thailand and elsewhere) by default with tax refunds. I presume that to be the tax refunds for short term travelers in that country who buy things there, and not applicable to ordering online from there and getting it shipped. AFAIK, a few countries (including countries like Australia and Canada) have such tax refunds above a specific amount of spending for some specific categories of spending.
- dylan604 5y ago
  I was thinking that a $3000+ anything from Apple just doesn't sound mind blowing. Then again, I'm always one to play the game of max everything out on Apple's new thing, and then think about how many other things that could buy. Regional differences apply, but you could easily buy a really decent car for some Apple gear maxed out (think MacPro) or just a daily beater for the price of a maxed out MBP laptop. The fact the new M1Ultra maxed is <$10k was a bit shocking.
  - wtmt 5y ago
    I find the comparison with a car a bit amusing, though I get your point. Usually, a car spends more than 95% of the time parked somewhere, whereas a smartphone or a computer are usually used for at least a few hours everyday. I’m not saying that cars are useless in comparison. It’s just that they’re not even near the same category on what they offer to the user.
    - dylan604 5y ago
      Just for the lulz, I just maxed out a MacPro: $52,299. I know I'm cheap and what not, but there's not many things in my world that costs $52k. A car is the most relatable thing in that price range to me, so that's where I turn. I'm guessing for some of you overpaid SV types <ducks>, that's just an average night at the club. We all relate to things differently.

elvenodid 5y ago

This makes me wonder how many industries stay underdeveloped due to high hardware prices. Think of Nigeria movie industry, Brazilian game industry, or even the worldwide impact of high gpu prices due to crypto mining and scarce chips.

teaearlgraycold 5y ago

Won't this soon be Russia now that Apple has cut all sales with the country?

dylan604 5y ago
Russia will be the new Cuba with phone tech 50 years old instead of cars. Or, they'll just keep supplying from China and not really notice
- dhosek 5y ago
  That assumes that the situation will last 50 years. Cuba has been embargoed by the US for so long because its oligarchs all moved to Florida and Texas and took their money with them and have bought themselves some American democracy with it. My cynical side thinks that the worst case scenario (short of nukes or full-scale WWIII) where Russia essentially annexes Ukraine like China did Tibet will eventually lead to roughly the same consequences for Russia that the Chinese annexation of Tibet did for China.
  - gerikson 5y ago
    Except Ukraine has 10x the population of Tibet and a land border with EU countries...
  - laurent92 5y ago
    When industrial partnerships are broken, there is no incentive to go back. No trust either, neither from the two sides, neither from companies to government not to shut down the transaction again at the first whim.
  - pmontra 5y ago
    My bet is that once Russia is on a black list for everything China is going to keep Russia on a leash. Buy enough from them in yuan to keep them alive, sell to them to get those yuans back, don't make them so rich to be able to rebuild a really worrisome army. And who'll be in the Cremlin will still rule over all of Russia and be rich and happy. I'd like to hear from someone in Russia to understand if this is a credible endgame.

d136o 5y ago

While working on a BigCo product that produced invoices to advertisers in different countries I learned that there are different local laws around invoicing and how a final price is shown to a customer. In the US all prices in our application were exclusive of taxes, which were added after a total cost for customer was computed. For Brazil, a multi month and multi team effort ensued to assure variable tax rates could be applied to different customers and so a only a final price/cost inclusive of “taxes” would be shown to advertisers. … this makes me wonder if taxes/“cost of doing business” is the true cause (something the author waves away without data, and which I don’t have either :) …

dhosek 5y ago

Even before I clicked the link, I was sure the answer was Brazil. It's not so much the taxes that raise the prices as the tariffs (which are kind of invisible taxes in that they are paid through higher prices rather than directly—which is part of what made a former president's boasting about raising tariffs somewhat absurd. It seemed he believed that the exporting country paid the price of the tariffs and not domestic consumers in the form of higher prices). I remember that there were plans to build a Foxconn factory in Brazil specifically to manufacture iPhones for the Brazilian market because of the tariffs (I don't know if this ever happened, I think maybe it did?).

stavros 5y ago
> what made a former president's boasting about raising tariffs somewhat absurd Wow, how does a president think this?
- lordnacho 5y ago
  IME this is one of the most common economic misconceptions that people have, to think that the economic cost of a tax is borne by whoever nominally pays it. Most people with no economics background will for example think that it's just companies that pay salary related taxes, or consumers who pay VAT. Those are both true in the accounting sense that the money is paid by those respective parties to the government but not in the economic sense of who would have the extra money if there were no tax.
  - stavros 5y ago
    My dad had the same reaction when I told him that we'd pay the extra credit card fees. He said "the merchant pays those" and didn't seem to get my "where do you think the merchant gets the money from?" reply.
    - afiori 5y ago
      While all the money is coming from the customers this changes which customers pay and more and which pay less. The guy buying a whole month of grocery will pay less with (fair) explicit fees, the guy buying a single redbull would pay more. Personally my problem with credit card fees is that they are generally not advertised and the costumer should easily be able to know how much they are going to get charged even before the checkout or ordering (this obviously applies to non VAT-included prices). Merchants on the other hand should reject non-profitable payment options (in my country it is quite rude to try to pay a coffe with a visa/mastercard)

emadabdulrahim 5y ago

Same as in Egypt. Prices for Apple products are nuts over there.

wtmt 5y ago

A few comments on this from an Indian perspective. Apple products are quite expensive here too, when compared against U.S. prices (plus sales tax). It may seem as if this is because of customs duties, but that’s not the entire story. Many companies tend to have geographically differentiated pricing to expand their market and make more money. Even if the prices aren’t completely matching the local currency equivalent (with respect to USD) and local conditions, they would have some compensation applied. Apple has historically been against differentiated pricing, especially for its hardware. It also focuses heavily on retaining its 35% (approx.) profit margins. Only on a few services has Apple reduced pricing in the recent years in some countries (for example, in India, Apple Arcade, Apple TV+ and Apple Music are priced at nearly one fourth of the U.S. prices, but iCloud is priced the same as in the U.S.). I’m not saying that all Apple hardware products are sold at the USD price plus local customs duties and taxes in other regions, but almost all of them are. What’s more ridiculous is that the prices don’t go down much even when Apple is assembling products locally and doesn’t have to pay as much in duties (a few iPhone models are assembled in India). Since Apple has this business model, people in India who do know of someone coming from the U.S. or Dubai or another country/location where these are cheaper ask them to purchase those there and bring them down. There are several “Bring me this from there (BMTFT)” groups on social media to connect people. For individual travelers the duty free limit (legal) plus duty evasion (not legal) in certain cases offer big incentives not to buy locally. I’m sure there’s plenty of organized smuggling also going on. Whatever metrics Apple is tracking on sales by country get skewed by this, tilting heavily towards U.S. and other countries and making them seem larger than they are, while also making the countries with typically weaker currencies and higher duties seem as smaller markets than they are. (I know Apple can get country wise usage numbers from its telemetry in iOS, the App Store and other Apple apps)

vrdmn 5y ago
> Whatever metrics Apple is tracking on sales by country get skewed by this, tilting heavily towards U.S. and other countries and making them seem larger than they are, while also making the countries with typically weaker currencies and higher duties seem as smaller markets than they are. They can most likely see analytics on which country is using how many of their devices. Where the device was bought would be just one metric. Where the device is being mostly used would be the more important metric here.

gnicholas 5y ago

I would imagine local laws regarding warranties would also affect pricing. For example, in the US you get one year of warranty, and that's it. In some other countries, there are longer mandatory warranty periods for expensive items. Presumably part of the reason Apple products are more expensive in those countries is that they are on the hook for more warranty service. Interestingly, this means Apple might not care that foreign tourists snap up Apple products when visiting the US. They might claim that those products don't qualify for the enhanced local warranty when the tourists return to their home countries. /speculation

laurencerowe 5y ago
I don't think better warranties explain it. In Europe where 2 year warranties are mandated UK prices for a MacBook Pro 14 base model (after excluding 20% VAT) are only 3.6% higher than the US price while German prices (after excluding 19% VAT) are 14% lower at current exchange rates. The Brazilian cash price (10% less than the headline price which includes financing on the Apple store) seems to be 25% higher than the US price after accounting for 17% sales tax and 60% import duty.
- gambiting 5y ago
  >> In Europe where 2 year warranties are mandated UK prices for a MacBook Pro 14 base model In UK all Apple products come with a 1 year warranty. Yes the consumer rights act gives you the right to have a product repaired or replaced(by the seller) if it becomes faulty due to manufacturing defects in 2 years after purchase....but after the initial 6 months it's the consumer who has to demonstrate that the fault is a result of manufacturing defect. If you can't demonstrate that then the seller doesn't have to repair your product. It's absolutely not the same as a warranty.
  - bigDinosaur 5y ago
    One must remember that Apple is notorious for refusing to repair certain defects within their one year warranty until the relevant class action or sufficient media coverage occurs, so the extent to which their warranty is a 'real' warranty can be somewhat debated. Anyway, it's absolutely known as a 'statutory warranty' in places like Australia https://www.apple.com/au/legal/statutory-warranty/au/ https://www.apple.com/au/legal/statutory-warranty/au/ and people certainly get things repaired based on an expectation for the lifetime of a product, without having to prove that it was a manufacturing defect.

milkers 5y ago

Come to Turkey, here Apple prices are cheaper than Eggplant prices.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

pjmlp 5y ago

I am lucky enough to live in a country that isn't that bad, however all the Apple stuff I ever owned, wasn't mine rather provided by work/custormer's project.

low_tech_love 5y ago

There is one other important factor that is seldom discussed: inequality. Even being so expensive, they still sell enough to make good profits, because there is enough rich people in Brazil to buy them once a year. Brazil has one of the higher inequalities in the world and while it’s common to say Brazil is poor, the truth is that there is a shitload of very rich people too (it’s more than 200M people after all). I’m sure things would change if people simply stopped buying them (or couldn’t afford).

tomxor 5y ago
^this In most countries Apple's market is the top 1%
- dan-robertson 5y ago
  This sentence looks plausible, but easy to misinterpret by reading it incorrectly. For example, I think most Apple device users are middle-income Americans or middle-high income people from other developed countries.
  - oblio 5y ago
    Most countries are poor and Apple devices are expensive. Why are you hacknernews-splaining their comment when it's obvious what they meant?
  - low_tech_love 5y ago
    In America yes, and also in Europe for example. I come from Brazil and live in northern Europe and having an iPhone here means absolutely nothing because everyone can afford it, even though it is still expensive. It’s simply that the gap between rich and poor is small, so you get to play the same game. But in an extremely unequal place like Brazil the economy works differently. It’s like a tug of war where 1% from one side pull as strongly as the rest on the other side. There is a huge gap in-between, and the same deals sometimes won’t work on both sides.
  - throwamon 5y ago

windex 5y ago

Some parts of this price ecosystem would have looked different if Samsung had decided to straighten up their act and not shovel out crapware, adware, and nagware with their so called "Updates" for their lower end phones. It's a lost opportunity for Samsung. Apple gets to do this because their devices seem safer, easier, and faster to use right now.

MaxikCZ 5y ago
I bought samsung earbuds. They worked flawlessly. From time to time, a software update comes. Every single time I look into change log only to read "Improved stability and security". Few updates ago, when I took out my buds, only one was playing. Till today I need to disconnect and connect my buds to make them both work. If only they would just leave the things as they were, or gave me option to rollback.. So much for "Improved stability and security" I guess. I'll never buy a Samsung headphones again.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  Oh, just be happy they do not have (yet) updated to integrate advertisement into them.
  - Bouncingsoul1 5y ago
    If these are Bluetooth LE devices they surely integrated advertisement, it just means something different in this context and could actually explain the technical problem which the parent had.
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      Doing satire is hard, when reality is way ahead with all the bad things that can happen.
- kalleboo 5y ago
  TBF, I had similar issues with only one ear connecting with my AirPods (gen1). The only difference is the software updates are silent and happen in the background with zero update notes.

protontorpedo 5y ago

I lived in Brazil, and my well-off friends bought their Macs smuggled from Paraguay. Still, at Paraguay prices a MacBook Pro used to cost about 10x the minimum wage.

Synaesthesia 5y ago

Apple products are so expensive here in South Africa. And we don't have as much disposable cash as Americans/westerners. So yeah adoption is hindered. They don't even try to be competitive unlike Samsung and Huawei do here.

ksec 5y ago

iPhone 13 cost R$ 7,599.00, or Roughly $1500 in USD. Compared to $799 in US. On a 30% Import Tax, and a maximum of VAT for Import product alone makes it ~$1250 already. For unstable currency ( comparatively speaking ) Apple tends to hedge at least 15% rate, that makes it around $1437. Apple tends to add a few pcenctage more for those countries with extra consumer protection. ( As in EUR ). So I dont think it is that far off at all.

lozenge 5y ago
You call it the unstable currency adjustment, somebody else can call it the "phone is already unaffordable, let's go further to make it a luxury status symbol" adjustment.
- ksec 5y ago
  The phone is a luxury status symbol with or without those adjustment anyway.
- acchow 5y ago
  But the same iPhone 13 in India costs 1048 USD, which is almost completely explained by their 22.5% tariffs. So why doesn't Apple apply your supposed "luxury adjustment" in India? Why only in Brazil?

fareesh 5y ago

My friends in California enjoy railing against systemic racism except when it's a system that results in my fellow Indians and myself paying more money for the same iPhone. Obviously it's because of import duties and taxes which have nothing to do with Apple, but I'm sure the richest company in the world that is committed to the cause of social justice can find a way to make the pricing fair ;)

Brajeshwar 5y ago

Ah! Today morning, I woke up to the news of the new Apple products everywhere including Hackernews. As usual, for the kicks, I tried customizing the total spec-out version of the Apple Mac Studio. This is costlier than most typical cars on Indian roads. And the Mac Studio cost do not include the keyboard, mouse, and monitor which is needed to make it the bare minimum usable computer. https://twitter.com/brajeshwar/status/1501440907295752193 https://twitter.com/brajeshwar/status/1501440907295752193

andai 5y ago
That's about 9000 euro, about the same as the "trashcan mac" (i forget the marketing name) when they were still selling them. I think this one is a bit faster though :)
- Brajeshwar 5y ago
  Well, there was a hearty discussion when Apple opened their online store win India (Sep 23, 2020). The fully spec-out Mac Pro cost more than a typical home in most Indian city sub-urban area. I made peace that day by earmarking the day with my first purchase -- an Apple Watch Band. ;-) Check it out https://twitter.com/brajeshwar/status/1308632105711095809 https://twitter.com/brajeshwar/status/1308632105711095809
droopyEyelids 5y ago
Its more expensive than many cars on the road in the USA! “25% of cars on the road are are at least 16 years old” https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/28/25percent-of-cars-in-us-are-at-least-sixteen-years-old----record-high.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/28/25percent-of-cars-in-us-are-... A 16 year old car that people drive not usually worth $10k.

ArcMex 5y ago

Also in my country, very expensive. Therefore, I order from Apple USA directly and import through courier. The exchange rate, courier fee and 15 day arrival 'delay' are much more tolerable than what I would pay for locally at the 'iStore'.

meerita 5y ago

I think in Argentina they're expensive than brazil. Argentina has a lockdown on dollars actives so it's hard to get dollars to buy such imported products.

thewileyone 5y ago

Different countries have different import duties, which are "hidden" costs for foreign products. It's possible that these types of tariffs cause Apple stuff to be more expensive in Brazil.

secondcoming 5y ago

I recently had to upgrade my really old iPad. I'm not exactly poor but I went for a pretty cheap model as I couldn't mentally justify the prices of the higher end models. The iPad is the only Apple device I'm willing to buy, it's great.

IYasha 5y ago

Why whould anyone care about garbage prices? ) If you wanted some justifiably expensive hardware, buy Sun! Oh, wait, it doesn't exist anymore... (

skocznymroczny 5y ago

My Brazilian friend asked me to recommend her a laptop given her budget. It was certainly an interesting experience. Not only the laptops were much more expensive than they would be in other parts of the world, but also they were older models, with HDDs and 4GB of RAM instead of more up to date models going with SSDs and 8GB of RAM (or more).

gavinray 5y ago
Did you consider buying one in the US (or wherever you are/online) and then mailing it to them? I recently was going to mail a new Mac M1 to a university student in a foreign country. I found services that specialized in it that would do it for $99, FWIW
- q3k 5y ago
  ... $99 plus all applicable taxes and duties on the item you're importing.

ankaAr 5y ago

Laughs in Argentinian.. Brazil most expensive Apple products.. , yes.. Still laughing

arepublicadoceu 5y ago

In Brazil the start model of the new iPhone SE starts at 4200 brl or 835 usd, according to google. The most famous apple joke in Brazil is that it's cheaper to go to US buy a top of the line iPhone, do some tourism and return to Brazil than buying it here.

warp 5y ago
Seems to be common practice here in Ecuador as well. Ordering stuff online from anywhere outside of Ecuador is kind of a last resort, because of very high import duties for many items (and a small but real risk of your items getting "lost" by customs). However if you are bringing that stuff back on a flight, that's exempt from import duties if you stick to the 2-item limit (e.g. don't come back with a suitcase full of iPhones, but if you're traveling back with your existing old phone and a new phone for yourself, that is allowed). If you're rich enough to afford an iPhone here, you're not buying locally. You plan a shopping trip to Miami once or twice a year, the ticket cost is basically evened out by the savings of all the stuff you're buying in the USA and many people have family there as well they can visit (which is an extra reason to travel, and you're not staying in a hotel).

spacexsucks 5y ago

fleddr 5y ago

It's a long time ago but I once made a business trip to Brazil where local colleagues attempted to explain the reason behind these high prices. I don't remember everything but one example stuck with me: the government forcing the shipment of the incoming goods into a particular harbor that is far away from the end destination, as an attempt to provide them work, and perhaps apply local tariffs. Next, this product needs to be shipped again, probably by air, to the place it needs to be. So it's the distribution of work for the sake of work, keeping each other busy I guess. The other odd thing I noticed back then is electronics that exist nowhere else. For example, an electronics company you may only know for their TVs suddenly also has laptops and phones. But only in Brazil. I guess they are white label products that are rebranded, as part of the "wealth signaling" the author talked about.

fortran77 5y ago

The last thing I'd want to do when out and about in Brazil is "wealth signal."

wyclif 5y ago
Displaying an iPhone in Rio is likely to get you robbed.

Mikeb85 5y ago

Countries like India and Brazil are so stratified in terms of wealth that you essentially have people who have no chance of affording it, ever, and people with the same or more disposable income as those in the west. So the strategy is to simply get as much as possible out of the 'rich' people who will buy it as a status symbol.

ilove196884 5y ago

There is joke here that I as an India would like to share. For the price of the latest iPhone to be bought from a store in India , it is cheaper to buy a two way flight ticket to the UAE , buy the iPhone and bring it back.

acchow 5y ago

> “Yeah, Apple’s products are pretty good, probably the best depending on what you need from them, but at the end of the day they are not that different from the cheaper alternatives and not really worth the extra money unless you have a lot to spare”. Which, it seems to me, is pretty much what you are going to hear from most people about Apple products anywhere in the world. This could not be further from the truth. I imagine the number of people who think iPhones are the superior product outnumber the number of people who don't really care, and I'd be among them.

Pmop 5y ago

I still think the reason are custom duties (which I think is something immoral), and anything else is just a consequence. Buying an Apple product from elsewhere is more expensive than buying one here. If that wasn't the case, people would just import the products, and the local businesses would have to adjust or risk bankruptcy.

gwmnxnp_516a 5y ago

Brazil has only itself to blame. Not only Apple products, but several other technology items are pretty expensive due to the VAT (Value Added Taxes), namely, ICMS - state vat tax, IPI - federal vat tax for manufactured products, IOF - federal government tax that incurs on financial trasactions, and high import tariffs. All tariffs and taxes almost doubles the price of everything imported and whenever a product is sold to a distributor and the final seller, state and federal VAT taxes adds up increasing the price even further. Unlike the global north, most of taxes revenues in Brazil come from VAT taxes since brazilian middle class is not willing to pay higher income tax and at the same time they want US-style taxes and European-like lifestyle, such as ree healthcare and free college that are paid in Europe mostly through income tax revenues and dividend tax revenues. So despite higher taxes, it it is not that bad for the upper class and those who can afford Apple gadgets as they would have to pay higher income taxes if they moved to Europe, US or other countries. In Brazil even dividends are not taxed, while in US and Erope they are taxed and companies have to use stock buybacks in order to avoid double taxation.

nextaccountic 5y ago

Brazil also has world's most expensive cars. We build cars in Brazilian factories and sell them in other countries cheaper than we sell in the local market. https://www.automotiveworld.com/uncategorised/89068-brazil-home-to-the-world-s-most-expensive-cars/ https://www.automotiveworld.com/uncategorised/89068-brazil-h... And the reason for that is.. that we pay the price. For some reason we accept to pay a higher price than any other country, even though there's a lot of competition (maybe the companies form a cartel here? But why here and not in the rest of the world?)