5 ms·

Too bad that historically Apple has not given any attention to Mac gaming.

bobbylarrybobby 5y ago
Part of Apple's historic MO has been to not invest in areas they don't see themselves having a competitive advantage in. Now that they can make gaming happen with a very low wattage budget they may well try to enter that space in earnest.
- kllrnohj 5y ago
  The gaming performance of the existing M1 GPUs is, well, crap (like far behind the other laptop competition, to say nothing of desktop GPUs). The Ultra probably isn't changing that, since it's very unlikely to be a hardware problem and instead a software ecosystem & incentives problem.
  - kitsunesoba 5y ago
    I don’t think the performance is that bad. On a whim I tried running WoW on a 16” M1 Pro MBP and it consistently got FPS higher than the refresh rate (120hz) with the game rendering at 1x scale and most effects maxed out. Granted, that’s not as good as what you’d get with a mobile RTX 3080 or something, but it’s nothing to sneeze at for a laptop that doesn’t get scorching hot and doesn’t sound like a leaf blower when being pushed. I could definitely see the Max and Ultra with a beefier cooling system (like the Studio’s) having pretty respectable performance.
    - kllrnohj 5y ago
      https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/apple-m1-max-performance-review/6 https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/apple-m1-max-performanc... M1 Max struggles to keep up with an RTX 3060 mobile. Now that's with the overhead of Rosetta 2 and all that, so it's of course "not fair" for the M1. But that's also the current reality of the market, so ya know.
    - ohgodplsno 5y ago
      WoW isn't exactly the pinnacle of demanding performance. It's like saying you can run counter strike at 200FPS: congrats, so can everyone else, without paying $2000
  - Croftengea 5y ago
    Yes, it's "crap" not because GPU is slow but rather that most triple A title games are optimized for Windows. So it's difficult to expect a good performance from a game that runs with API conversion layer(s) (Windows -> Mac) and then CPU emulation (x86 -> arm). So publishers/developers need to make more native games. Even though every Mac port will probably make 1/10th revenue of a Windows title I guess Mac users would be happy to pay more for better games. I certainly would.
  - gameswithgo 5y ago
    It is a video memory problem. Unified memory is nice but you need GDDR6 to feed a powerful GPU. But you don't want GDDR6 for the cpu.
- altairprime 5y ago
  The difference between an Apple TV and a Mac Mini is essentially how powerful of Apple silicon it has, whether it runs tvOS or macOS, and whether it has HDMI out or not. The Studio is a more compact form factor than any modern 4K gaming console. If they chose to ship something in that form factor with tvOS, HDMI, and an M1 Max/Ultra, it would be a very competitive console on the market — if game developers could be persuaded to implement for it. How would it compare to the Xbox Series X and PS5? That’s a comparison I expect to see someday at WWDC, once they’re ready. And once a game is ported to Metal on any Apple silicon OS, it’s a simple exercise to port it to all the rest; macOS, tvOS, ipadOS, and (someday, presumably) vrOS. Is today’s announcement enough to compel large developers like EA and Bungie to port their games to Metal? I don’t know. But Apple has two advantage with their hardware that Windows can’t counter: the ability to boot into a signed/sealed OS (including macOS!), load a signed/sealed app, attest this cryptographically to a server, and lock out other programs from reading with a game’s memory or display. This would end software-only online cheating in a way that PCs can’t compete with today. This would also reduce the number of GPUs necessary to support to one, Apple Metal 2, which drastically decreases the complexity of testing and deployment of game code. I look forward to Apple deciding to play ball with gaming someday.
  - neetdeth 5y ago
    This all makes sense, and in that context it’s unfortunate that Apple’s relationship with the largest game tools company, Epic, is... strained, to say the least. They could always choose to remedy that with a generous buyout offer.
  - t3rabytes 5y ago
    A recent keynote compared an Apple series chip to an Xbox One S, can’t remember which though.
  - derac 5y ago
    Seems unlikely that the general population would spend 2-4k on a console.
    - codyb 5y ago
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  $4000-$6000 is a toy for a tiny number of rich people or a work machine for a well paid professional. In the PC space the average spend is $800 and a PS5 is $500.
- novok 5y ago
  Every god damn child has an iPad already to keep them entertained and the hardware is plenty good enough. Going one step further in the age ranges to get big game revenue like the switch will help them capture more.
- torginus 5y ago
  This has been always very strange for me. Apple chips used in smartphones were very consistently near the top of the pack even in terms of GPU performance, and unlike their Android counterparts, they rarely throttled, and could deliver said perf with decent battery life. Yet the iOS 'gaming' scene, despite being one of the major revenue drivers, consists mostly of low-quality F2P games.
- arvinsim 5y ago
  Or maybe Jobs was just salty about the Halo buyout? In any case, it's a moot point. Apple clearly doesn't care about desktop gaming and it shows in both their hardware and software.
miohtama 5y ago
Apple has now too much money and is running out of core business areas. Expect more investing in non-Apple areas like gaming, cars, etc. Though every video game company on the planet hates them because of App Store terms.
- nr2x 5y ago
  The first half of the event was old wine in new bottles - I reckon that’s the main growth area they are squeezing.
  - lostlogin 5y ago
    Or was it last seasons wine in old bottles?
    - kllrnohj 5y ago
      The "new" display is an 8 year monitor whose updates were a better webcam & integrated speakers, and they're charging more for it than ever before. More like rotten wine in old bottles.
- jen20 5y ago
  > Expect more investing in non-Apple areas like gaming, cars, etc. I remember people saying this about phones in 2006.
- flipgimble 5y ago
  "every video game company" = Epic Games, and mostly because they don't like to pay overhead for their Fortnite loot boxes that most parents wish they could have some control over. I don't have allegiance to either company mostly because they don't care about me, just my money.
  - t3rabytes 5y ago
    Epic doesn’t do lootboxes, next.
onethought 5y ago
Except when Bungie was going to release Halo on Mac[0] and Microsoft swooped in bought them and made it an Xbox thing. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzrme9yWens https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzrme9yWens
- lostlogin 5y ago
  The Marathon days were really great. That jump was a huge loss to me, even if it wasn’t to Apple.
xbmcuser 5y ago
Once they are confident of their graphics advantage I think they will enter the console market against Microsoft and Sony with Apple tv console
hajile 5y ago
Apple is the world's biggest and most profitable gaming company. For every AAA gamer, there are a hundred casual gamers (one reason why Nintendo consoles run circles around Sony and Microsoft). Apple has invested billions into their gaming division. The big thing they need right now is a new version of Metal that gets feature parity with Vulkan or DX. Also of note, there are very persistent rumors of an upcoming VR headset. Their M1 alone would blow away competition like the Quest. A Pro or max chip with some disabled CPU cores wouldn't cost a ton due to being scavenged cores and would positively stomp the competition.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  In what concerns developer productivitiy, it is Vulkan that needs to get feature parity with Metal.

Part of Apple's historic MO has been to not invest in areas they don't see themselves having a competitive advantage in. Now that they can make gaming happen with a very low wattage budget they may well try to enter that space in earnest.

kllrnohj 5y ago
The gaming performance of the existing M1 GPUs is, well, crap (like far behind the other laptop competition, to say nothing of desktop GPUs). The Ultra probably isn't changing that, since it's very unlikely to be a hardware problem and instead a software ecosystem & incentives problem.
- kitsunesoba 5y ago
  I don’t think the performance is that bad. On a whim I tried running WoW on a 16” M1 Pro MBP and it consistently got FPS higher than the refresh rate (120hz) with the game rendering at 1x scale and most effects maxed out. Granted, that’s not as good as what you’d get with a mobile RTX 3080 or something, but it’s nothing to sneeze at for a laptop that doesn’t get scorching hot and doesn’t sound like a leaf blower when being pushed. I could definitely see the Max and Ultra with a beefier cooling system (like the Studio’s) having pretty respectable performance.
  - kllrnohj 5y ago
    https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/apple-m1-max-performance-review/6 https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/apple-m1-max-performanc... M1 Max struggles to keep up with an RTX 3060 mobile. Now that's with the overhead of Rosetta 2 and all that, so it's of course "not fair" for the M1. But that's also the current reality of the market, so ya know.
  - ohgodplsno 5y ago
    WoW isn't exactly the pinnacle of demanding performance. It's like saying you can run counter strike at 200FPS: congrats, so can everyone else, without paying $2000
- Croftengea 5y ago
  Yes, it's "crap" not because GPU is slow but rather that most triple A title games are optimized for Windows. So it's difficult to expect a good performance from a game that runs with API conversion layer(s) (Windows -> Mac) and then CPU emulation (x86 -> arm). So publishers/developers need to make more native games. Even though every Mac port will probably make 1/10th revenue of a Windows title I guess Mac users would be happy to pay more for better games. I certainly would.
- gameswithgo 5y ago
  It is a video memory problem. Unified memory is nice but you need GDDR6 to feed a powerful GPU. But you don't want GDDR6 for the cpu.
altairprime 5y ago
The difference between an Apple TV and a Mac Mini is essentially how powerful of Apple silicon it has, whether it runs tvOS or macOS, and whether it has HDMI out or not. The Studio is a more compact form factor than any modern 4K gaming console. If they chose to ship something in that form factor with tvOS, HDMI, and an M1 Max/Ultra, it would be a very competitive console on the market — if game developers could be persuaded to implement for it. How would it compare to the Xbox Series X and PS5? That’s a comparison I expect to see someday at WWDC, once they’re ready. And once a game is ported to Metal on any Apple silicon OS, it’s a simple exercise to port it to all the rest; macOS, tvOS, ipadOS, and (someday, presumably) vrOS. Is today’s announcement enough to compel large developers like EA and Bungie to port their games to Metal? I don’t know. But Apple has two advantage with their hardware that Windows can’t counter: the ability to boot into a signed/sealed OS (including macOS!), load a signed/sealed app, attest this cryptographically to a server, and lock out other programs from reading with a game’s memory or display. This would end software-only online cheating in a way that PCs can’t compete with today. This would also reduce the number of GPUs necessary to support to one, Apple Metal 2, which drastically decreases the complexity of testing and deployment of game code. I look forward to Apple deciding to play ball with gaming someday.
- neetdeth 5y ago
  This all makes sense, and in that context it’s unfortunate that Apple’s relationship with the largest game tools company, Epic, is... strained, to say the least. They could always choose to remedy that with a generous buyout offer.
- t3rabytes 5y ago
  A recent keynote compared an Apple series chip to an Xbox One S, can’t remember which though.
- derac 5y ago
  Seems unlikely that the general population would spend 2-4k on a console.
  - codyb 5y ago
michaelmrose 5y ago
$4000-$6000 is a toy for a tiny number of rich people or a work machine for a well paid professional. In the PC space the average spend is $800 and a PS5 is $500.
novok 5y ago
Every god damn child has an iPad already to keep them entertained and the hardware is plenty good enough. Going one step further in the age ranges to get big game revenue like the switch will help them capture more.
torginus 5y ago
This has been always very strange for me. Apple chips used in smartphones were very consistently near the top of the pack even in terms of GPU performance, and unlike their Android counterparts, they rarely throttled, and could deliver said perf with decent battery life. Yet the iOS 'gaming' scene, despite being one of the major revenue drivers, consists mostly of low-quality F2P games.
arvinsim 5y ago
Or maybe Jobs was just salty about the Halo buyout? In any case, it's a moot point. Apple clearly doesn't care about desktop gaming and it shows in both their hardware and software.

miohtama 5y ago

Apple has now too much money and is running out of core business areas. Expect more investing in non-Apple areas like gaming, cars, etc. Though every video game company on the planet hates them because of App Store terms.

nr2x 5y ago
The first half of the event was old wine in new bottles - I reckon that’s the main growth area they are squeezing.
- lostlogin 5y ago
  Or was it last seasons wine in old bottles?
  - kllrnohj 5y ago
    The "new" display is an 8 year monitor whose updates were a better webcam & integrated speakers, and they're charging more for it than ever before. More like rotten wine in old bottles.
jen20 5y ago
> Expect more investing in non-Apple areas like gaming, cars, etc. I remember people saying this about phones in 2006.
flipgimble 5y ago
"every video game company" = Epic Games, and mostly because they don't like to pay overhead for their Fortnite loot boxes that most parents wish they could have some control over. I don't have allegiance to either company mostly because they don't care about me, just my money.
- t3rabytes 5y ago
  Epic doesn’t do lootboxes, next.

onethought 5y ago

Except when Bungie was going to release Halo on Mac[0] and Microsoft swooped in bought them and made it an Xbox thing. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzrme9yWens https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzrme9yWens

lostlogin 5y ago
The Marathon days were really great. That jump was a huge loss to me, even if it wasn’t to Apple.

xbmcuser 5y ago

Once they are confident of their graphics advantage I think they will enter the console market against Microsoft and Sony with Apple tv console

hajile 5y ago

Apple is the world's biggest and most profitable gaming company. For every AAA gamer, there are a hundred casual gamers (one reason why Nintendo consoles run circles around Sony and Microsoft). Apple has invested billions into their gaming division. The big thing they need right now is a new version of Metal that gets feature parity with Vulkan or DX. Also of note, there are very persistent rumors of an upcoming VR headset. Their M1 alone would blow away competition like the Quest. A Pro or max chip with some disabled CPU cores wouldn't cost a ton due to being scavenged cores and would positively stomp the competition.

pjmlp 5y ago
In what concerns developer productivitiy, it is Vulkan that needs to get feature parity with Metal.