5 ms·

It's a funny analogy, but there is a spectrum, no? Surely you could acknowledge that there is a spectrum somewhere between Black, Gay, Trans, and Toaster Fucker

It's a funny analogy, but there is a spectrum, no? Surely you could acknowledge that there is a spectrum somewhere between Black, Gay, Trans, and Toaster Fucker? It's extremely easy to dismiss all of these as equally irrelevant. In fact many do (not saying you are) - "I don't care if you are black, white or purple. I treat everyone equally". "I don't care if you're straight, gay, or curvy - what you do in the bedroom is no business of mine". These attitudes SEEM like they are non-judgemental and egalitarian, but they tend to miss all the implicit ways in which the dominant society does NOT treat people equally in these circumstances. And being asked to be treated equally gets perceived as asking for special treatment until it becomes ridiculous: "Gay people want special treatment by asking gay marriage - they're not being discriminated - they can already marry someone of the opposite sex". It's easy not to care about race or sexuality when society treats yours as irrelevant.

nobody9999 5y ago
>These attitudes SEEM like they are non-judgemental and egalitarian, but they tend to miss all the implicit ways in which the dominant society does NOT treat people equally in these circumstances. So, what would you have us do? I treat each individual as an individual and interact with them based on their individual actions, not based on any immutable characteristics. I fully support inclusion, diversity, honesty and good citizenship and speak out when I see bigotry, hatred and abuse. It seems like you're implying that doing so is somehow disingenuous or posturing and that I need to do more. Do I understand you correctly? Should I, as a middle-aged, heterosexual, "white" male, carry around lots of cash so I can give every woman, POC, differently-abled and LGBTQ+ person I encounter US$20? As "reparations" for the white male privilege that I never asked for, don't want and actively argue against? This may seem like some sort of anti-progressive rant, but it's not. So, other than trying hard to be a decent human being and interacting with and about others based on their actions rather than some immutable characteristics, calling out hatred and bigotry when I see it and supporting political candidates who do the same, what exactly do you propose that I do?
- foldr 5y ago
  >It seems like you're implying that doing so is somehow disingenuous or posturing and that I need to do more. Do I understand you correctly? I don't see anything in the OP's post to suggest that. I think their point is that being merely indifferent to (e.g.) gay people isn't actually a neutral stance in the context of a homophobic society. But you state in your post that you're not merely indifferent, so I don't think anything OP says applies to you.
  - dgfitz 5y ago
    If everyone get the way GP did, the issues would cease to exist. Not only is it at WORST neutral, it’s exactly what everyone SHOULD be doing.
    - foldr 5y ago
      Sure, but no-one was actually criticizing GP for not doing enough, or doing the wrong thing.
    - deanCommie 5y ago
      Getting everyone to neutral won't fix society because it requires MORE than Neutrality to undo the past damage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiSiHRNQlQo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiSiHRNQlQo
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  You're taking a very individualist stance on the issue - nobody reasonable thinks you should literally give your money to oppressed people to assuage privilege guilt. Hell, you shouldn't feel guilt at all for privilege; it's just something you're meant to be aware of when looking at things outside your frame of reference. All anybody wants is for you to support the movement for their rights in whatever ways you feel willing to. Often times the "I don't see colour" people are just sticking their heads in the sand about ongoing racial issues, and won't do anything to help combat racism (even voting, the literal smallest political action you can take) because they believe that it's good enough that they personally don't mistreat people for their race. Sometimes these types of people will actively oppose progressive movements in the style of "I'm against racism but affirmative action/BLM protests/Black girls code is political correctness gone mad" stances. What people are generally asking for is for you to argue their case if it comes up with friends, vote for politicians that want to rectify institutional problems, and even join in protests or rallies or voice your support publicly if you're willing to do so.
int_19h 5y ago
The author of the original comment didn't seem to believe there's a spectrum - note the response to this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668896 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668896
mardifoufs 5y ago
I don't get what being black has to do with this theory though. It's not like it was hard to find a black community before? Nevermind that it's not exactly a trait that has anything to do with what community you are in the first place!
raxxorrax 5y ago
I completely disagree with this on basically all these points. Implicit bias only has shaky theoretical foundations and you don't have to be ashamed of being biased in the first place. Of course you have bias for friends and family. Principles and laws keep you from nepotism. But emotional ties are almost completely irrelevant here. The mafia isn't a real family. These position are as non-judgemental as it gets. Gay marriage is a separate issue but many support it because of such positions. Dominant society in liberal democracies impose almost no values on anything related to that and it is even part of the curriculum to educate people on different sexuality. But I think that problem is solved since a few generations. In many countries at least. Saying such positions would be judgemental is actually moving backwards again.

nobody9999 5y ago

>These attitudes SEEM like they are non-judgemental and egalitarian, but they tend to miss all the implicit ways in which the dominant society does NOT treat people equally in these circumstances. So, what would you have us do? I treat each individual as an individual and interact with them based on their individual actions, not based on any immutable characteristics. I fully support inclusion, diversity, honesty and good citizenship and speak out when I see bigotry, hatred and abuse. It seems like you're implying that doing so is somehow disingenuous or posturing and that I need to do more. Do I understand you correctly? Should I, as a middle-aged, heterosexual, "white" male, carry around lots of cash so I can give every woman, POC, differently-abled and LGBTQ+ person I encounter US$20? As "reparations" for the white male privilege that I never asked for, don't want and actively argue against? This may seem like some sort of anti-progressive rant, but it's not. So, other than trying hard to be a decent human being and interacting with and about others based on their actions rather than some immutable characteristics, calling out hatred and bigotry when I see it and supporting political candidates who do the same, what exactly do you propose that I do?

foldr 5y ago
>It seems like you're implying that doing so is somehow disingenuous or posturing and that I need to do more. Do I understand you correctly? I don't see anything in the OP's post to suggest that. I think their point is that being merely indifferent to (e.g.) gay people isn't actually a neutral stance in the context of a homophobic society. But you state in your post that you're not merely indifferent, so I don't think anything OP says applies to you.
- dgfitz 5y ago
  If everyone get the way GP did, the issues would cease to exist. Not only is it at WORST neutral, it’s exactly what everyone SHOULD be doing.
  - foldr 5y ago
    Sure, but no-one was actually criticizing GP for not doing enough, or doing the wrong thing.
  - deanCommie 5y ago
    Getting everyone to neutral won't fix society because it requires MORE than Neutrality to undo the past damage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiSiHRNQlQo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiSiHRNQlQo
beaconstudios 5y ago
You're taking a very individualist stance on the issue - nobody reasonable thinks you should literally give your money to oppressed people to assuage privilege guilt. Hell, you shouldn't feel guilt at all for privilege; it's just something you're meant to be aware of when looking at things outside your frame of reference. All anybody wants is for you to support the movement for their rights in whatever ways you feel willing to. Often times the "I don't see colour" people are just sticking their heads in the sand about ongoing racial issues, and won't do anything to help combat racism (even voting, the literal smallest political action you can take) because they believe that it's good enough that they personally don't mistreat people for their race. Sometimes these types of people will actively oppose progressive movements in the style of "I'm against racism but affirmative action/BLM protests/Black girls code is political correctness gone mad" stances. What people are generally asking for is for you to argue their case if it comes up with friends, vote for politicians that want to rectify institutional problems, and even join in protests or rallies or voice your support publicly if you're willing to do so.

int_19h 5y ago

The author of the original comment didn't seem to believe there's a spectrum - note the response to this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668896 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668896

mardifoufs 5y ago

I don't get what being black has to do with this theory though. It's not like it was hard to find a black community before? Nevermind that it's not exactly a trait that has anything to do with what community you are in the first place!

raxxorrax 5y ago

I completely disagree with this on basically all these points. Implicit bias only has shaky theoretical foundations and you don't have to be ashamed of being biased in the first place. Of course you have bias for friends and family. Principles and laws keep you from nepotism. But emotional ties are almost completely irrelevant here. The mafia isn't a real family. These position are as non-judgemental as it gets. Gay marriage is a separate issue but many support it because of such positions. Dominant society in liberal democracies impose almost no values on anything related to that and it is even part of the curriculum to educate people on different sexuality. But I think that problem is solved since a few generations. In many countries at least. Saying such positions would be judgemental is actually moving backwards again.