5 ms·

Ask HN: Navigating activist tech organizations during a job hunt

16 points by dolni 5y ago

Hi HN, I've got a job now that's been pretty good to me so far, but a recent change in circumstances has put a bad taste in my mouth. As such, I'm considering other options. I do site reliability engineering work, though I could transition into full software if I wanted. I've got about 15 years of experience so it would be for a senior role. One concern I have is accidentally stumbling into a company with a twisted, woke culture that will see me ostracized if I don't self-flagellate (being a white man) and engage in performative social justice. I could probably bring the odds of that down to about 0 if I avoid anything in say, urban California and NYC but that really cuts down on the available job opportunities in tech. A few questions for you all: 1. How pervasive is this sort of work culture, actually? I get the impression that it's common in some areas, like Silicon Valley, but that could easily be a misconception. 2. Do you have any tips for detecting this kind of culture before signing on at a new company? 3. Any specific companies you can recommend looking into? I have roots where I am and not willing to move, so remote work flexibility is a must. Thanks!

lovich 5y ago
What level of behavior counts as “performative social justice” to you? I ask as my workplace would probably be stereotyped at first glance as a place like that but the only extra effort I had to put in was listing my pronouns in my company profile which isn’t really a burden. I had more performative social justice work thrown at me at stodgy old corporations where they’d file you in for day long seminars a few times a year talking about the regular social justice points while the entire leadership team was white guys who got to skip the seminars
- exolymph 5y ago
  I don't have a problem with trans people, but the pressure to behave like Havel's greengrocer deeply disgusts me.
- dolni 5y ago
  Good question! The line is definitely not a hard one -- it's blurry. While I don't care for social justice seminars at work, those don't actually bother me to the same degree that mandatory company profile changes do (even something insignificant like a pronoun). Like I mentioned, the main concern is being ostracized for not doing the performative stuff. So if my coworkers are going to shun me for expressing the wrong opinion on some topic (or just refusing to engage in discussion) that would be a big problem for me. I don't want to feel compelled to express an opinion I don't actually have. Some people are okay with doing that. Some people like doing it to improve their image. It's not for me.
  - awb 5y ago
    > So if my coworkers are going to shun me for expressing the wrong opinion on some topic (or just refusing to engage in discussion) that would be a big problem for me I never enjoyed talking about politics or current events with coworkers. I'd typically steer the conversation back to my job (which is what I'm supposed to be doing anyway). Any socializing after work, I'd stick to safe subjects like family, clients, sports, etc. Is that what you're looking for as well? Or are you interested in talking about politics with like minded coworkers? Or do you want coworkers with different views as long as they respect yours? > I don't want to feel compelled to express an opinion I don't actually have I've never been privy to this, so I'm curious what this situation was like for you and how you felt pressured. Any example you can share? Or is this more about trying to prevent a possible situation? The closest I guess for me was staying silent while someone rambled on, kind of like I might do at a family holiday if I want to keep the peace instead of throwing gas on the fire. Or, I've used conversation ending techniques like short one-word responses, or acting distracted, changing the subject, etc. Still annoying, but I don't mind it as much as I'm not really looking for deep relationships at work and after the first few times they would stop bringing up stuff to me because I wasn't giving them reactions (positive or negative).
    - dolni 5y ago
      > I never enjoyed talking about politics or current events with coworkers. I'd typically steer the conversation back to my job (which is what I'm supposed to be doing anyway). > > Any socializing after work, I'd stick to safe subjects like family, clients, sports, etc. > > Is that what you're looking for as well? Or are you interested in talking about politics with like minded coworkers? Or do you want coworkers with different views as long as they respect yours? I'm an opinionated person and I don't mind sharing my opinion. That being said, I can avoid talking politics at work. If I do share my opinion, I don't even mind if someone gets into a heated debate with me -- I can get over it. What I'm specifically concerned about is being blackballed long-term because we don't agree. > I've never been privy to this, so I'm curious what this situation was like for you and how you felt pressured. Any example you can share? Or is this more about trying to prevent a possible situation? This isn't quite the same, but it's tangential. I had a former coworker who would try to tightly control conversation that occurred in the office. Her sensitivity was sky high. EVERYTHING was a personal attack somehow. Working with her was absolute misery. It killed office camaraderie and we had no fun whatsoever. This was pre-COVID, when office common-space chats were still common. After that experience, I don't want to work in an environment where people can't be adults and do some emotional regulation where it's appropriate. I'm with you generally. There are strategies to mitigate some of that stuff at work. While you don't HAVE to like the people you work with, it sure does help.
- giantg2 5y ago
  "while the entire leadership team was white guys who got to skip the seminars" They likely had seminars, but focused on how to avoid legal issues related to diversity.
exolymph 5y ago
It's a long game but networking on antiwoke / "based" Tech Twitter is the play. (Note for the peanut gallery: this is distinct from whatever alt-right caricature you have in your head.) @balajis is a Schelling point to start with. More recommendations, varying scales of prominence: @micsolana, @tszzl, @orthonormalist In the more immediate term, the startup I work for is looking for Rust engineers.
benlivengood 5y ago
I think you should just ask them this directly when being interviewed/recruited.
- dolni 5y ago
  That conversation puts you into the position of having to prove you're not a *ist/*phobe. At least I suspect that would be the reaction of most people. I'm not against working with people who are pro-social justice, even if I don't always agree with them. I am against it being forced on me on pain of losing my job.
  - benlivengood 5y ago
    That conversation sounds like the best way for both parties to get their preferences satisfied.
- awb 5y ago
  How would you phrase it?
  - benlivengood 5y ago
    Personally? "I recognize that women, minorities, people of color, and LGBTQ folks have struggled with systemic discrimination and I'd like to help mitigate that." Individual responses will vary of course but it's best to be completely honest.
tacostakohashi 5y ago
Performative social justice is required by society and the market - investors, clients, prospective employees. For this reason, you won't really find a way to escape it in the long run, and you may as well just drink the kool-aid and get good at it. It is, as you say, performative, so you don't need to agree with it nor expend substantial effort, and it's totally ok, expected even, that you find some causes you happen to agree with, or treat it primarily as a social event. Any company/management who is not currently playing along will eventually have new owners/management installed that play this game.
- awb 5y ago
  At the good companies I've worked with owners and management are laser focused on the product, the market and scaling their team. I've worked at a couple bad ones though where I agree the ownership can lose focus and bring up politics too much.
giantg2 5y ago
1. All companies have some sort of culture, even if it varies from team to team. I think the bulk of the woke culture is likely at smaller companies. It seems like larger companies have some sort of diversity training, but it's mostly talk. No matter where you are or what the topic is, most places expect you to tow the company line. 2. Hard to say. The company policies, mission statement, and even industry can play a role. Are you more likely to do performative social justice working for an outdoor store website (like Bass Pro) or for a social worker company website? The policies and mission statement could just be fluff, but Glassdoor or other reviews could have some useful info. 3. I would say most big companies are going to talk big, but be mostly fluff. Finance, most large retail, defense, and any manufacturing that's still left would be my guess.
edhowzerblack 5y ago
You will be exposed to a certain amount of social justice material at any company. At many companies this is just part of HR / compliance training. You sit through a day's worth of bullshit and then go back to your normal work. If the company wants more than that, if they require employees to be true believers there will likely be a social justice component to the interview / application process. If you experience this then you know not to take the job. Generally speaking, I would say that startups are more likely to push this stuff. The reason is that startups tend to hire younger people and offer them "culture perks" instead of market rate salaries. (we can't pay you market rate but we have a foosball table and we're woke af!)
- awb 5y ago
  I've recruited and worked at dozens of startups, and at least at the Seed -> A/B rounds, they seem to be laser focused on their product and surviving, so I haven't seen this at those early growth stages. Once they get to C-round -> IPO and mature though I do start seeing this more.

16 points by dolni 5y ago

lovich 5y ago

What level of behavior counts as “performative social justice” to you? I ask as my workplace would probably be stereotyped at first glance as a place like that but the only extra effort I had to put in was listing my pronouns in my company profile which isn’t really a burden. I had more performative social justice work thrown at me at stodgy old corporations where they’d file you in for day long seminars a few times a year talking about the regular social justice points while the entire leadership team was white guys who got to skip the seminars

exolymph 5y ago
I don't have a problem with trans people, but the pressure to behave like Havel's greengrocer deeply disgusts me.
dolni 5y ago
Good question! The line is definitely not a hard one -- it's blurry. While I don't care for social justice seminars at work, those don't actually bother me to the same degree that mandatory company profile changes do (even something insignificant like a pronoun). Like I mentioned, the main concern is being ostracized for not doing the performative stuff. So if my coworkers are going to shun me for expressing the wrong opinion on some topic (or just refusing to engage in discussion) that would be a big problem for me. I don't want to feel compelled to express an opinion I don't actually have. Some people are okay with doing that. Some people like doing it to improve their image. It's not for me.
- awb 5y ago
  > So if my coworkers are going to shun me for expressing the wrong opinion on some topic (or just refusing to engage in discussion) that would be a big problem for me I never enjoyed talking about politics or current events with coworkers. I'd typically steer the conversation back to my job (which is what I'm supposed to be doing anyway). Any socializing after work, I'd stick to safe subjects like family, clients, sports, etc. Is that what you're looking for as well? Or are you interested in talking about politics with like minded coworkers? Or do you want coworkers with different views as long as they respect yours? > I don't want to feel compelled to express an opinion I don't actually have I've never been privy to this, so I'm curious what this situation was like for you and how you felt pressured. Any example you can share? Or is this more about trying to prevent a possible situation? The closest I guess for me was staying silent while someone rambled on, kind of like I might do at a family holiday if I want to keep the peace instead of throwing gas on the fire. Or, I've used conversation ending techniques like short one-word responses, or acting distracted, changing the subject, etc. Still annoying, but I don't mind it as much as I'm not really looking for deep relationships at work and after the first few times they would stop bringing up stuff to me because I wasn't giving them reactions (positive or negative).
  - dolni 5y ago
    > I never enjoyed talking about politics or current events with coworkers. I'd typically steer the conversation back to my job (which is what I'm supposed to be doing anyway). > > Any socializing after work, I'd stick to safe subjects like family, clients, sports, etc. > > Is that what you're looking for as well? Or are you interested in talking about politics with like minded coworkers? Or do you want coworkers with different views as long as they respect yours? I'm an opinionated person and I don't mind sharing my opinion. That being said, I can avoid talking politics at work. If I do share my opinion, I don't even mind if someone gets into a heated debate with me -- I can get over it. What I'm specifically concerned about is being blackballed long-term because we don't agree. > I've never been privy to this, so I'm curious what this situation was like for you and how you felt pressured. Any example you can share? Or is this more about trying to prevent a possible situation? This isn't quite the same, but it's tangential. I had a former coworker who would try to tightly control conversation that occurred in the office. Her sensitivity was sky high. EVERYTHING was a personal attack somehow. Working with her was absolute misery. It killed office camaraderie and we had no fun whatsoever. This was pre-COVID, when office common-space chats were still common. After that experience, I don't want to work in an environment where people can't be adults and do some emotional regulation where it's appropriate. I'm with you generally. There are strategies to mitigate some of that stuff at work. While you don't HAVE to like the people you work with, it sure does help.
giantg2 5y ago
"while the entire leadership team was white guys who got to skip the seminars" They likely had seminars, but focused on how to avoid legal issues related to diversity.

exolymph 5y ago

It's a long game but networking on antiwoke / "based" Tech Twitter is the play. (Note for the peanut gallery: this is distinct from whatever alt-right caricature you have in your head.) @balajis is a Schelling point to start with. More recommendations, varying scales of prominence: @micsolana, @tszzl, @orthonormalist In the more immediate term, the startup I work for is looking for Rust engineers.

benlivengood 5y ago

I think you should just ask them this directly when being interviewed/recruited.

dolni 5y ago
That conversation puts you into the position of having to prove you're not a *ist/*phobe. At least I suspect that would be the reaction of most people. I'm not against working with people who are pro-social justice, even if I don't always agree with them. I am against it being forced on me on pain of losing my job.
- benlivengood 5y ago
  That conversation sounds like the best way for both parties to get their preferences satisfied.
awb 5y ago
How would you phrase it?
- benlivengood 5y ago
  Personally? "I recognize that women, minorities, people of color, and LGBTQ folks have struggled with systemic discrimination and I'd like to help mitigate that." Individual responses will vary of course but it's best to be completely honest.

tacostakohashi 5y ago

Performative social justice is required by society and the market - investors, clients, prospective employees. For this reason, you won't really find a way to escape it in the long run, and you may as well just drink the kool-aid and get good at it. It is, as you say, performative, so you don't need to agree with it nor expend substantial effort, and it's totally ok, expected even, that you find some causes you happen to agree with, or treat it primarily as a social event. Any company/management who is not currently playing along will eventually have new owners/management installed that play this game.

awb 5y ago
At the good companies I've worked with owners and management are laser focused on the product, the market and scaling their team. I've worked at a couple bad ones though where I agree the ownership can lose focus and bring up politics too much.

giantg2 5y ago

1. All companies have some sort of culture, even if it varies from team to team. I think the bulk of the woke culture is likely at smaller companies. It seems like larger companies have some sort of diversity training, but it's mostly talk. No matter where you are or what the topic is, most places expect you to tow the company line. 2. Hard to say. The company policies, mission statement, and even industry can play a role. Are you more likely to do performative social justice working for an outdoor store website (like Bass Pro) or for a social worker company website? The policies and mission statement could just be fluff, but Glassdoor or other reviews could have some useful info. 3. I would say most big companies are going to talk big, but be mostly fluff. Finance, most large retail, defense, and any manufacturing that's still left would be my guess.

edhowzerblack 5y ago

You will be exposed to a certain amount of social justice material at any company. At many companies this is just part of HR / compliance training. You sit through a day's worth of bullshit and then go back to your normal work. If the company wants more than that, if they require employees to be true believers there will likely be a social justice component to the interview / application process. If you experience this then you know not to take the job. Generally speaking, I would say that startups are more likely to push this stuff. The reason is that startups tend to hire younger people and offer them "culture perks" instead of market rate salaries. (we can't pay you market rate but we have a foosball table and we're woke af!)

awb 5y ago
I've recruited and worked at dozens of startups, and at least at the Seed -> A/B rounds, they seem to be laser focused on their product and surviving, so I haven't seen this at those early growth stages. Once they get to C-round -> IPO and mature though I do start seeing this more.