9 ms·

My favorite theory comes from an HN comment describing it as the "toaster fucker problem." I'd attempt to re-explain it, but the original comment is great (and

by madrox 5y ago

My favorite theory comes from an HN comment describing it as the "toaster fucker problem." I'd attempt to re-explain it, but the original comment is great (and easy to search for. Not many mentions of the phrase "toaster fucker" on HN.) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25667362 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25667362

wanderer_ 5y ago
Ironically enough, that thread devolved into an irrelevant political argument.
- sjmm1989 5y ago
  Such is the way of the internet.
- ear7h 5y ago
  The original thread is literally about the the riots from Jan 6.
  - wanderer_ 5y ago
    Ah. I didn't see the context, however I was referring to the Brexit debate later on.
salawat 5y ago
...Wow. That resonates hard with some stuff I'm seein' now.
sjmm1989 5y ago
My roommate basically put it in his project for university as a similar theory to Toaster Fucker. I too have a personal similar theory where I just refer to the 'village idiot'. They all basically revolve around one truth I think. The internet doesn't radicalize people. People radicalize people. The internet is just full of people who are already radicalized in their daily life, and they are using the internet to radicalize others. Whether it be for the left, right, or even some weird alt thing. Penny Arcade even has their own comic strip theory called "G.I.F.T of the Internet". Theirs is more simplistic though in that it stipulates that the anonymity of the net is the problem insofar that it gives people a fake sense of security to be who they really are on the inside. For better or worse. Usually worse. I think all of our ideas on the matter basically resonate on the same singular issue. That people were already nuts to begin with. The internet is just making easier to identify which are fucking screwballs and ... the rest. But then that poses a new problem. Mob mentality even of righteous people is still just as toxic as the mob mentality of fucking idiots.
- lazide 5y ago
  I don’t think so - my impression is that it’s feed algorithms pushing the most incendiary topics to people because they get the most engagement. Nothing gets people going like someone saying something divisive or controversial after all. So pretty soon most of the feed is divisive bullshit.
  - int_19h 5y ago
    Incendiary topics draw more attention, thus more likes / reshares. Feed algorithms can amplify this effect, but it's always there, unfortunately: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc
    - lazide 5y ago
      Likes and reshares are often consumed via feed like interfaces though? I get it definitely happens with folks texting friends links or sharing it via email, but the friction with those is higher and it gives time for folks to think more than the feed interface. It’s highly efficient psychological pressure/engagement and maximizing the focus towards the engaging content that is the real problem IMO. It makes something that someone could think about (potentially) and choose to stop into something they become hyper engaged with constantly and can’t turn off.
  - ReactiveJelly 5y ago
    > Nothing gets people going like someone saying something divisive Shiri's Scissor: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/30/sort-by-controversial/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/30/sort-by-controversial/
    - findingaway 5y ago
      Thank you for this.
  - zuminator 5y ago
    Not only the most incendiary topics but the most incendiary people as well! So the crazy angry neighbor who AFK has two friends gets 500 followers on Twitter, and lots of "likes" on various partisan sites. That rush of approval causes the neighbor to invest even more of their time online where they feel important. This wouldn't be possible without network effects, so I agree, the algorithm can't be discounted or disambiguated from the phenomenon as a whole.
deanCommie 5y ago
It's a funny analogy, but there is a spectrum, no? Surely you could acknowledge that there is a spectrum somewhere between Black, Gay, Trans, and Toaster Fucker? It's extremely easy to dismiss all of these as equally irrelevant. In fact many do (not saying you are) - "I don't care if you are black, white or purple. I treat everyone equally". "I don't care if you're straight, gay, or curvy - what you do in the bedroom is no business of mine". These attitudes SEEM like they are non-judgemental and egalitarian, but they tend to miss all the implicit ways in which the dominant society does NOT treat people equally in these circumstances. And being asked to be treated equally gets perceived as asking for special treatment until it becomes ridiculous: "Gay people want special treatment by asking gay marriage - they're not being discriminated - they can already marry someone of the opposite sex". It's easy not to care about race or sexuality when society treats yours as irrelevant.
- nobody9999 5y ago
  >These attitudes SEEM like they are non-judgemental and egalitarian, but they tend to miss all the implicit ways in which the dominant society does NOT treat people equally in these circumstances. So, what would you have us do? I treat each individual as an individual and interact with them based on their individual actions, not based on any immutable characteristics. I fully support inclusion, diversity, honesty and good citizenship and speak out when I see bigotry, hatred and abuse. It seems like you're implying that doing so is somehow disingenuous or posturing and that I need to do more. Do I understand you correctly? Should I, as a middle-aged, heterosexual, "white" male, carry around lots of cash so I can give every woman, POC, differently-abled and LGBTQ+ person I encounter US$20? As "reparations" for the white male privilege that I never asked for, don't want and actively argue against? This may seem like some sort of anti-progressive rant, but it's not. So, other than trying hard to be a decent human being and interacting with and about others based on their actions rather than some immutable characteristics, calling out hatred and bigotry when I see it and supporting political candidates who do the same, what exactly do you propose that I do?
  - foldr 5y ago
    >It seems like you're implying that doing so is somehow disingenuous or posturing and that I need to do more. Do I understand you correctly? I don't see anything in the OP's post to suggest that. I think their point is that being merely indifferent to (e.g.) gay people isn't actually a neutral stance in the context of a homophobic society. But you state in your post that you're not merely indifferent, so I don't think anything OP says applies to you.
LordDragonfang 5y ago
Same author, further down in the thread: > All these twitter/facebook/youtube bans are trying to put a genie back in a bottle, Parler is gaining steam Did not age nearly as well.
- seneca 5y ago
  Why? Parler was gaining steam until a consortium of megacorporations aligned to erase it from the internet.
  - ReactiveJelly 5y ago
    Not much value in being wrong for the 'right' reason
  - bena 5y ago
    That's a pretty generous interpretation of what happened.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      Yeah, the less charitable but probably more accurate interpretation was that not only were they wrong, but for the wrong reason, too.
HideousKojima 5y ago
4channers made a comic of this concept a few years ago, but it was something like "gay dragonkin neonazis" instead of toaster lovers.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Seems someone adjusted the story for a wider audience.
rackjack 5y ago
Fun fact, this theory actually comes from a 4chan post.
- meeriee 5y ago
  Here's the original 4chan post post https://old.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/5ofih3/beforeafter_the_internet/ https://old.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/5ofih3/beforeafter_t...
  - gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
    > linking a rebbit post of a 4chan thread on HN What a time to be alive
- madrox 5y ago
  4chan has taught me a lot about the internet. They're the epitome of the red team.
leephillips 5y ago
A brilliant comment indeed.
jxramos 5y ago
wow, the internet and the "coalescing of the fringe", which is probably a more apt phrase and characterization of this phenomenon.
dskwww 5y ago
[flagged]
- Bancakes 5y ago
  Ironically you're only acknowledging the toxic minority of the internet. If anything, if you can't make use of it to find and make friends, colleagues, and family - you are the maladapted one. The internet provides you with a dozen lifetimes worth of information so you improve yourself. Far beyond what your yokel neighbors could teach you. The need for a extended family is still here and you can compensate with the internet for being born in a shithole country or flyover state.
- foldr 5y ago
monkeydust 5y ago
This is why I love HN. Brilliant theory and one I want to circulate but might... no will... need to replace 'toaster fucker' with something more PC to avoid a call from the HR robots.
Bancakes 5y ago
It's a naive and overly courageous assumption that people around you are competent and capable. For instance, I've yet to see someone play proper tennis, do proper pullups, play proper guitar, etc. At some point you have to branch off and learn from others.
yodelshady 5y ago
The counter to that is - sometimes the toaster fuckers are right. See: civil rights, women's suffrage, LGBT. My pet dream: Everybody Gets One, maybe two, things to be "radical" about. You reckon the earth is flat? Sure. You don't get that AND vaccines are micro-chipped AND an antisemitic 9/11 theory. Spend that token wisely.
rospaya 5y ago
This basically keeps the status quo and gatekeeps any marginal opinion. Today's toaster fucking is tomorrow's right to repair or yesterday's abortion rights. It only helps to preserve the system. I for one am happy about all the toaster fuckers who have a place to talk about it, maybe get help if they think they need it. The alternative would be that we all get mashed into an amorphous blob of the same middle of the road opinions that keep everyone happy. Yuck.

by madrox 5y ago

wanderer_ 5y ago

Ironically enough, that thread devolved into an irrelevant political argument.

sjmm1989 5y ago
Such is the way of the internet.
ear7h 5y ago
The original thread is literally about the the riots from Jan 6.
- wanderer_ 5y ago
  Ah. I didn't see the context, however I was referring to the Brexit debate later on.

salawat 5y ago

...Wow. That resonates hard with some stuff I'm seein' now.

sjmm1989 5y ago

My roommate basically put it in his project for university as a similar theory to Toaster Fucker. I too have a personal similar theory where I just refer to the 'village idiot'. They all basically revolve around one truth I think. The internet doesn't radicalize people. People radicalize people. The internet is just full of people who are already radicalized in their daily life, and they are using the internet to radicalize others. Whether it be for the left, right, or even some weird alt thing. Penny Arcade even has their own comic strip theory called "G.I.F.T of the Internet". Theirs is more simplistic though in that it stipulates that the anonymity of the net is the problem insofar that it gives people a fake sense of security to be who they really are on the inside. For better or worse. Usually worse. I think all of our ideas on the matter basically resonate on the same singular issue. That people were already nuts to begin with. The internet is just making easier to identify which are fucking screwballs and ... the rest. But then that poses a new problem. Mob mentality even of righteous people is still just as toxic as the mob mentality of fucking idiots.

lazide 5y ago
I don’t think so - my impression is that it’s feed algorithms pushing the most incendiary topics to people because they get the most engagement. Nothing gets people going like someone saying something divisive or controversial after all. So pretty soon most of the feed is divisive bullshit.
- int_19h 5y ago
  Incendiary topics draw more attention, thus more likes / reshares. Feed algorithms can amplify this effect, but it's always there, unfortunately: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc
  - lazide 5y ago
    Likes and reshares are often consumed via feed like interfaces though? I get it definitely happens with folks texting friends links or sharing it via email, but the friction with those is higher and it gives time for folks to think more than the feed interface. It’s highly efficient psychological pressure/engagement and maximizing the focus towards the engaging content that is the real problem IMO. It makes something that someone could think about (potentially) and choose to stop into something they become hyper engaged with constantly and can’t turn off.
- ReactiveJelly 5y ago
  > Nothing gets people going like someone saying something divisive Shiri's Scissor: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/30/sort-by-controversial/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/30/sort-by-controversial/
  - findingaway 5y ago
    Thank you for this.
- zuminator 5y ago
  Not only the most incendiary topics but the most incendiary people as well! So the crazy angry neighbor who AFK has two friends gets 500 followers on Twitter, and lots of "likes" on various partisan sites. That rush of approval causes the neighbor to invest even more of their time online where they feel important. This wouldn't be possible without network effects, so I agree, the algorithm can't be discounted or disambiguated from the phenomenon as a whole.

deanCommie 5y ago

It's a funny analogy, but there is a spectrum, no? Surely you could acknowledge that there is a spectrum somewhere between Black, Gay, Trans, and Toaster Fucker? It's extremely easy to dismiss all of these as equally irrelevant. In fact many do (not saying you are) - "I don't care if you are black, white or purple. I treat everyone equally". "I don't care if you're straight, gay, or curvy - what you do in the bedroom is no business of mine". These attitudes SEEM like they are non-judgemental and egalitarian, but they tend to miss all the implicit ways in which the dominant society does NOT treat people equally in these circumstances. And being asked to be treated equally gets perceived as asking for special treatment until it becomes ridiculous: "Gay people want special treatment by asking gay marriage - they're not being discriminated - they can already marry someone of the opposite sex". It's easy not to care about race or sexuality when society treats yours as irrelevant.

nobody9999 5y ago
>These attitudes SEEM like they are non-judgemental and egalitarian, but they tend to miss all the implicit ways in which the dominant society does NOT treat people equally in these circumstances. So, what would you have us do? I treat each individual as an individual and interact with them based on their individual actions, not based on any immutable characteristics. I fully support inclusion, diversity, honesty and good citizenship and speak out when I see bigotry, hatred and abuse. It seems like you're implying that doing so is somehow disingenuous or posturing and that I need to do more. Do I understand you correctly? Should I, as a middle-aged, heterosexual, "white" male, carry around lots of cash so I can give every woman, POC, differently-abled and LGBTQ+ person I encounter US$20? As "reparations" for the white male privilege that I never asked for, don't want and actively argue against? This may seem like some sort of anti-progressive rant, but it's not. So, other than trying hard to be a decent human being and interacting with and about others based on their actions rather than some immutable characteristics, calling out hatred and bigotry when I see it and supporting political candidates who do the same, what exactly do you propose that I do?
- foldr 5y ago
  >It seems like you're implying that doing so is somehow disingenuous or posturing and that I need to do more. Do I understand you correctly? I don't see anything in the OP's post to suggest that. I think their point is that being merely indifferent to (e.g.) gay people isn't actually a neutral stance in the context of a homophobic society. But you state in your post that you're not merely indifferent, so I don't think anything OP says applies to you.

LordDragonfang 5y ago

Same author, further down in the thread: > All these twitter/facebook/youtube bans are trying to put a genie back in a bottle, Parler is gaining steam Did not age nearly as well.

seneca 5y ago
Why? Parler was gaining steam until a consortium of megacorporations aligned to erase it from the internet.
- ReactiveJelly 5y ago
  Not much value in being wrong for the 'right' reason
- bena 5y ago
  That's a pretty generous interpretation of what happened.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Yeah, the less charitable but probably more accurate interpretation was that not only were they wrong, but for the wrong reason, too.

HideousKojima 5y ago

4channers made a comic of this concept a few years ago, but it was something like "gay dragonkin neonazis" instead of toaster lovers.

raxxorrax 5y ago
Seems someone adjusted the story for a wider audience.

rackjack 5y ago

Fun fact, this theory actually comes from a 4chan post.

meeriee 5y ago
Here's the original 4chan post post https://old.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/5ofih3/beforeafter_the_internet/ https://old.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/5ofih3/beforeafter_t...
- gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
  > linking a rebbit post of a 4chan thread on HN What a time to be alive
madrox 5y ago
4chan has taught me a lot about the internet. They're the epitome of the red team.

leephillips 5y ago

A brilliant comment indeed.

jxramos 5y ago

wow, the internet and the "coalescing of the fringe", which is probably a more apt phrase and characterization of this phenomenon.

dskwww 5y ago

[flagged]

Bancakes 5y ago
Ironically you're only acknowledging the toxic minority of the internet. If anything, if you can't make use of it to find and make friends, colleagues, and family - you are the maladapted one. The internet provides you with a dozen lifetimes worth of information so you improve yourself. Far beyond what your yokel neighbors could teach you. The need for a extended family is still here and you can compensate with the internet for being born in a shithole country or flyover state.
foldr 5y ago

monkeydust 5y ago

This is why I love HN. Brilliant theory and one I want to circulate but might... no will... need to replace 'toaster fucker' with something more PC to avoid a call from the HR robots.

Bancakes 5y ago

It's a naive and overly courageous assumption that people around you are competent and capable. For instance, I've yet to see someone play proper tennis, do proper pullups, play proper guitar, etc. At some point you have to branch off and learn from others.

yodelshady 5y ago

The counter to that is - sometimes the toaster fuckers are right. See: civil rights, women's suffrage, LGBT. My pet dream: Everybody Gets One, maybe two, things to be "radical" about. You reckon the earth is flat? Sure. You don't get that AND vaccines are micro-chipped AND an antisemitic 9/11 theory. Spend that token wisely.

rospaya 5y ago

This basically keeps the status quo and gatekeeps any marginal opinion. Today's toaster fucking is tomorrow's right to repair or yesterday's abortion rights. It only helps to preserve the system. I for one am happy about all the toaster fuckers who have a place to talk about it, maybe get help if they think they need it. The alternative would be that we all get mashed into an amorphous blob of the same middle of the road opinions that keep everyone happy. Yuck.