4 ms·

Hint: they blame the USA and NATO for Putin invading

s1artibartfast 5y ago
I assume you were talking about me. I think blame is a stupid and fruitless framing for discussion. I do think the Eastward advance of NATO was a strategic and moral mistake.
- cbdumas 5y ago
  How do you think you would feel about that if you lived in Lithuania?
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    If I lived in Lithuania I would probably feel very scared of Russia, and not care much about what is good for NATO, the US, and the world. If I thought I would be accepted without repercussions, I would probably want that.
    - testrun 5y ago
      Lithuanians disagrees. This is why they applied for EU and NATO membership as quickly as they can. The Baltic states also was the first to leave the USSR. They always wanted to be free.
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        Reread my response. I said if I was Lithuanian I would probably apply. Sounds like they think the way I said they do.
        cbdumas 5y ago
        Apply to what? Lithuania has been a NATO member since 2004. This is literally the "eastward advance of NATO" which you referred to as a "moral mistake". You contradict yourself.
        s1artibartfast 5y ago
        You misunderstand. The question of what is a strategic and moral mistake for this US is entirely separate from what makes Lithuania happy. If someone asks me how I would feel if I were Russian, Lithuanian, or Chinese I provide an answer from that perspective. That doesn't mean I agree with it or it is moral. To be absolutely clear, I can understand why Lithuania would want to be part of NATO, but I do not think it was wise or moral for the US to grant such a request. This is not a radical position, and was held by many NATO members at the time. They required significant persuasion from the US to allow Lithuania entry to NATO. Similarly, France, Germany, and many NATO countries did not want to open the door to Georgia and Ukraine in 2008. They felt that it would lead to war in Europe. Again they were overruled by the US and we got a war in Georgia in 2008, the annexation of Crimea in 2014, and the largest war in Europe since WW2 today.
        CRConrad 5y ago
        > I can understand why Lithuania would want to be part of NATO, but I do not think it was wise or moral for the US to grant such a request. > This is not a radical position Maybe not; only a stupid and morally abhorrent one. > and was held by many NATO members at the time. They required significant persuasion from the US to allow Lithuania entry to NATO. Yeah, NATO member states are also capable of holding stupid and morally abhorrent positions. > Similarly, France, Germany, and many NATO countries did not want to open the door to Georgia and Ukraine in 2008. They felt that it would lead to war in Europe. We'll never know, though, will we? Since Georgia and Ukraine weren't admitted into NATO in (or soon after) 2008, I mean. > Again they were overruled by the US and we got a war in Georgia in 2008, the annexation of Crimea in 2014, and the largest war in Europe since WW2 today. Yup. Judging from the facts, all because Georgia and Ukraine weren't admitted into NATO in (or soon after) 2008. Well, because of that, and mainly because the Russian people keep clinging on to a fucking dictator who does shit like that, of course. Time for a fucking revolution, perhaps? I've heard you've tried one of those before. Pro tip: Try not to replace one fucking dictator with another this time.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    What price is preventing WW3 worth? I would say any price, as after WW3 civilization as we know it, if not all of humanity will perish. It is WW3 that we are edging towards in this war over NATO membership.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      > It is WW3 that we are edging towards in this war over NATO membership. It's not a "war over NATO membership"; that's just the Putler-propaganda framing of it.
    - dTal 5y ago
      If the world demonstrates that possession of nuclear weapons is sufficient to ensure safety even while committing indefensible wars of conquest and aggression, then WW3 becomes more likely, not less. Our response to unacceptable behavior by nation-states should be swift and painful.
  - maury91 5y ago
    I live in Lithuania and I'm glad we are part of Nato or now we will be the ones invaded by Russia
- frankharv 5y ago
  Moral mistake to stand up to a bully? That is the only reason NATO still exists. We literally paid hundreds millions of dollars to prop up Russia and their nuke labs during Yeltsin. Look what it got us. We should have snuffed them out like cockroaches. Instead we let them live. To our detriment. We needed to keep the boogeyman alive.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    You have to reconsider who is the bully given the number of countries invaded, governments toppled, and civilians killed by the US in the last 30 years. The US takes the cake in all categories, but of course we aren't a bully, all the people we kill were the bullies. We are the strongest so we define who is a bully or not. >We should have snuffed them out like cockroaches. Instead we let them live. To our detriment. yeah, you really sound like the good guy here
    - chii 5y ago
      The whataboutism is heavy. The USA aint no saints, but that doesn't absolve putin's invasion. "They did it first, so we should be allowed" isn't a defensible justification for war.
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        I'm not absolving anyone. It is a fucked situation. The hypocrisy of people saying they "should have snuffed them out like cockroaches" after 50 years of US atrocities is just astounding. Russia is a bully, but the US is 10x worse. Ukraine is the looser here. The US intentionally played them like a pawn and use their lives to get more leverage against Russia.
        frankharv 5y ago
        I am sorry for the tone of that offensive sentence. Perhaps I should have expressed the feeling in a more diplomatic wording. We did have them against the mat and let them up. Howz that for a PC version. There was cold war and we could have defeated the opponent. Instead we funded them.

I assume you were talking about me. I think blame is a stupid and fruitless framing for discussion. I do think the Eastward advance of NATO was a strategic and moral mistake.

cbdumas 5y ago
How do you think you would feel about that if you lived in Lithuania?
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  If I lived in Lithuania I would probably feel very scared of Russia, and not care much about what is good for NATO, the US, and the world. If I thought I would be accepted without repercussions, I would probably want that.
  - testrun 5y ago
    Lithuanians disagrees. This is why they applied for EU and NATO membership as quickly as they can. The Baltic states also was the first to leave the USSR. They always wanted to be free.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      Reread my response. I said if I was Lithuanian I would probably apply. Sounds like they think the way I said they do.
      - cbdumas 5y ago
        Apply to what? Lithuania has been a NATO member since 2004. This is literally the "eastward advance of NATO" which you referred to as a "moral mistake". You contradict yourself.
        s1artibartfast 5y ago
        You misunderstand. The question of what is a strategic and moral mistake for this US is entirely separate from what makes Lithuania happy. If someone asks me how I would feel if I were Russian, Lithuanian, or Chinese I provide an answer from that perspective. That doesn't mean I agree with it or it is moral. To be absolutely clear, I can understand why Lithuania would want to be part of NATO, but I do not think it was wise or moral for the US to grant such a request. This is not a radical position, and was held by many NATO members at the time. They required significant persuasion from the US to allow Lithuania entry to NATO. Similarly, France, Germany, and many NATO countries did not want to open the door to Georgia and Ukraine in 2008. They felt that it would lead to war in Europe. Again they were overruled by the US and we got a war in Georgia in 2008, the annexation of Crimea in 2014, and the largest war in Europe since WW2 today.
        CRConrad 5y ago
        > I can understand why Lithuania would want to be part of NATO, but I do not think it was wise or moral for the US to grant such a request. > This is not a radical position Maybe not; only a stupid and morally abhorrent one. > and was held by many NATO members at the time. They required significant persuasion from the US to allow Lithuania entry to NATO. Yeah, NATO member states are also capable of holding stupid and morally abhorrent positions. > Similarly, France, Germany, and many NATO countries did not want to open the door to Georgia and Ukraine in 2008. They felt that it would lead to war in Europe. We'll never know, though, will we? Since Georgia and Ukraine weren't admitted into NATO in (or soon after) 2008, I mean. > Again they were overruled by the US and we got a war in Georgia in 2008, the annexation of Crimea in 2014, and the largest war in Europe since WW2 today. Yup. Judging from the facts, all because Georgia and Ukraine weren't admitted into NATO in (or soon after) 2008. Well, because of that, and mainly because the Russian people keep clinging on to a fucking dictator who does shit like that, of course. Time for a fucking revolution, perhaps? I've heard you've tried one of those before. Pro tip: Try not to replace one fucking dictator with another this time.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  What price is preventing WW3 worth? I would say any price, as after WW3 civilization as we know it, if not all of humanity will perish. It is WW3 that we are edging towards in this war over NATO membership.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > It is WW3 that we are edging towards in this war over NATO membership. It's not a "war over NATO membership"; that's just the Putler-propaganda framing of it.
  - dTal 5y ago
    If the world demonstrates that possession of nuclear weapons is sufficient to ensure safety even while committing indefensible wars of conquest and aggression, then WW3 becomes more likely, not less. Our response to unacceptable behavior by nation-states should be swift and painful.
- maury91 5y ago
  I live in Lithuania and I'm glad we are part of Nato or now we will be the ones invaded by Russia
frankharv 5y ago
Moral mistake to stand up to a bully? That is the only reason NATO still exists. We literally paid hundreds millions of dollars to prop up Russia and their nuke labs during Yeltsin. Look what it got us. We should have snuffed them out like cockroaches. Instead we let them live. To our detriment. We needed to keep the boogeyman alive.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  You have to reconsider who is the bully given the number of countries invaded, governments toppled, and civilians killed by the US in the last 30 years. The US takes the cake in all categories, but of course we aren't a bully, all the people we kill were the bullies. We are the strongest so we define who is a bully or not. >We should have snuffed them out like cockroaches. Instead we let them live. To our detriment. yeah, you really sound like the good guy here
  - chii 5y ago
    The whataboutism is heavy. The USA aint no saints, but that doesn't absolve putin's invasion. "They did it first, so we should be allowed" isn't a defensible justification for war.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      I'm not absolving anyone. It is a fucked situation. The hypocrisy of people saying they "should have snuffed them out like cockroaches" after 50 years of US atrocities is just astounding. Russia is a bully, but the US is 10x worse. Ukraine is the looser here. The US intentionally played them like a pawn and use their lives to get more leverage against Russia.
      - frankharv 5y ago
        I am sorry for the tone of that offensive sentence. Perhaps I should have expressed the feeling in a more diplomatic wording. We did have them against the mat and let them up. Howz that for a PC version. There was cold war and we could have defeated the opponent. Instead we funded them.