8 ms·

This is the next step in work from home movement - outsourcing to lower wage countries. No visa required.

unicornfinder 5y ago
Oh absolutely, but what I have noticed as well is that companies in lower wage countries have started charging more as well as there's now more demand for outsourced workers.
- jakub_g 5y ago
  To be more specific: for example, (non-FAANG) senior dev salaries in Poland are pretty much in line with senior dev salaries in France. Before the covid, typical senior dev net salary in Poland was around ~12-18k PLN per month, while in France it's about 3k EUR per month (a bit higher in Paris, but also more expensive). One diff is that IT folks in PL typically work on b2b contracts; the upside is lower tax, and tax deductions on car leasing (hence it's easy to get new and very nice car). Downside: minimal state pension (no one in PL believes in state pensions money being managed well).
  - namdnay 5y ago
    You're comparing salaries with consulting rates, there are bigger differences than pension contributions. Salaries are low in France in big part because of all the advantages that come with it - near total job security, maternity/paternity rights, sick pay etc
    - sam_lowry_ 5y ago
      And a 35 hours work week.
      - Yiofir 5y ago
        35 hours work week doesn't exist for engineers in France. We are "Cadre forfait jours" which mean we are paid by days, not by hours. Typically an engineer works from 9am to 6pm. A 45 hour work week.
        KptMarchewa 5y ago
        Then we have better in Poland. I work till 6PM, but from 10AM and have a paid lunch inside. I know no one who works 9h regularly.
        namdnay 5y ago
        but with extra days off to compensate (the famous RTT). this is france, after all ;)
        touisteur 5y ago
        Those RTT, 15 additional days off really put the squeeze on hourly productivity. The French workforce that I knew, seems to have fiercely changed since then.
  - pbalcer 5y ago
    According to levels.fyi, the median salary in Google Munich is 147k USD [1] whereas the median for Warsaw is 82k USD [2]. Central Europe salaries are still quite a bit lower, even if you can be creative with taxes. Those B2B contracts are not quite as prevalent as one might think - larger corporations typically don't use them. And, from my experience, you can get to an even better take home pay with a little bit of time and career progression. [1] - https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html?track=Software%20Engineer&search=google&city=12730 https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html?track=Software%20Engineer&s... [2] - https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html?track=Software%20Engineer&search=google&city=3722 https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html?track=Software%20Engineer&s...
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    Car deductions mostly ended this year with forcing ryczałt and having to pay VAT after paying off leasing.
xkqd 5y ago
Is it? Can you share your internal source for this claim?
FartyMcFarter 5y ago
How is this outsourcing? Also, how is it any different from Google opening other international offices, which they've been doing for many years?
- ipaddr 5y ago
  No one said this is the first time they outsourced work. This is a doubledown of that strategy. Setting up a remote location to do work at a cheaper wage is outsourcing.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    It's far more commonly/correctly called "off-shoring" rather than "out-sourcing" (which is going to a third-party supplier).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
the_gipsy 5y ago
This is a good thing. Enough with the birthrights.
- jstx1 5y ago
  It's good for the people who are benefitting from it. Birthright or not, it's not nice to be in the locations that will potentially see lower wages in the future.
  - the_gipsy 5y ago
    Nobody wants to lose privilege.
    - jstx1 5y ago
      I don't know why you're framing it as birthright or privilege. It just comes across as being bitter because someone else has it better than you.
      - the_gipsy 5y ago
        Or does the realization make you bitter?
- wiseowise 5y ago
  What birthrights?
  - skybrian 5y ago
    They mean being fortunate enough to be born in the right country. (Or really, get citizenship there.) I'm not sure how much sense that makes within the EU?
    - wiseowise 5y ago
      Birthright implies you're entitled to something by being born. You aren't entitled to FAANG job by being born somewhere.
jeffbee 5y ago
That doesn't make any sense in this context. As the article says, they have 1000 engineers there and they've been there for 15 years. It is neither new nor outsourcing.
ipaddr 5y ago
But force them into a office in their location.
cletus 5y ago
It really isn't, just like outsourcing to India didn't kill engineering in the developed world.
- wiseowise 5y ago
  It's a death by thousand cuts.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Not sure if the people whose departments got migrated into Wipro, Sasken, TCS would agree, specially those that even had to provide competence transfer sessions.
- bobthechef 5y ago
schnevets 5y ago
Alternative take: This is the next step in work from home movement - investing in office space outside of world's most tech-heavy megacities.
babyshake 5y ago
It seems that you can't just be a US company hiring FTEs from other countries for the most part. You either need to hire contractors or setup a foreign subsidiary.
- KptMarchewa 5y ago
  Google has this subsidiary for a long, long time.
KptMarchewa 5y ago
We are all already working for your companies and other multinationals. There is no giant pool of engineers working for "domestic" companies to be poached, other than domestic outsourcing, who already are contracted by multinationals.
qiskit 5y ago
It's one part cheaper labor, it's one part taking over market, it's one part gaining political influence. Just like defense companies have parts made in all 50 states to gain political influence, google does it internationally. The more offices you open up in EU countries, the more political influence you have within the EU. Also, by opening more offices in EU companies, you make sure no EU headquartered google competitor can arise. For the love of god, why doesn't the EU simply ban/limit google and grow a homegrown google. The EU's incompetence is so astounding. Their population is much larger than our population and they certainly have the talent to create tech giants. China is doing it. Russia is doing it. Why can't the EU do it? At least try. Why are they giving away their market to amazon, apple, google, facebook, etc? They did it with Airbus, why can't they do it with tech? It's much more difficult to create an Airbus than it is to create an amazon, google, apple, facebook, etc. It's insane that after 20+ years after the beginning of the internet/tech boom, the EU is so tech poor. The few that they create have been bought up by american companies.

Oh absolutely, but what I have noticed as well is that companies in lower wage countries have started charging more as well as there's now more demand for outsourced workers.

jakub_g 5y ago
To be more specific: for example, (non-FAANG) senior dev salaries in Poland are pretty much in line with senior dev salaries in France. Before the covid, typical senior dev net salary in Poland was around ~12-18k PLN per month, while in France it's about 3k EUR per month (a bit higher in Paris, but also more expensive). One diff is that IT folks in PL typically work on b2b contracts; the upside is lower tax, and tax deductions on car leasing (hence it's easy to get new and very nice car). Downside: minimal state pension (no one in PL believes in state pensions money being managed well).
- namdnay 5y ago
  You're comparing salaries with consulting rates, there are bigger differences than pension contributions. Salaries are low in France in big part because of all the advantages that come with it - near total job security, maternity/paternity rights, sick pay etc
  - sam_lowry_ 5y ago
    And a 35 hours work week.
    - Yiofir 5y ago
      35 hours work week doesn't exist for engineers in France. We are "Cadre forfait jours" which mean we are paid by days, not by hours. Typically an engineer works from 9am to 6pm. A 45 hour work week.
      - KptMarchewa 5y ago
        Then we have better in Poland. I work till 6PM, but from 10AM and have a paid lunch inside. I know no one who works 9h regularly.
      - namdnay 5y ago
        but with extra days off to compensate (the famous RTT). this is france, after all ;)
        touisteur 5y ago
        Those RTT, 15 additional days off really put the squeeze on hourly productivity. The French workforce that I knew, seems to have fiercely changed since then.
- pbalcer 5y ago
  According to levels.fyi, the median salary in Google Munich is 147k USD [1] whereas the median for Warsaw is 82k USD [2]. Central Europe salaries are still quite a bit lower, even if you can be creative with taxes. Those B2B contracts are not quite as prevalent as one might think - larger corporations typically don't use them. And, from my experience, you can get to an even better take home pay with a little bit of time and career progression. [1] - https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html?track=Software%20Engineer&search=google&city=12730 https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html?track=Software%20Engineer&s... [2] - https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html?track=Software%20Engineer&search=google&city=3722 https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html?track=Software%20Engineer&s...
- KptMarchewa 5y ago
  Car deductions mostly ended this year with forcing ryczałt and having to pay VAT after paying off leasing.

xkqd 5y ago

Is it? Can you share your internal source for this claim?

FartyMcFarter 5y ago

How is this outsourcing? Also, how is it any different from Google opening other international offices, which they've been doing for many years?

ipaddr 5y ago
No one said this is the first time they outsourced work. This is a doubledown of that strategy. Setting up a remote location to do work at a cheaper wage is outsourcing.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  It's far more commonly/correctly called "off-shoring" rather than "out-sourcing" (which is going to a third-party supplier).

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

the_gipsy 5y ago

This is a good thing. Enough with the birthrights.

jstx1 5y ago
It's good for the people who are benefitting from it. Birthright or not, it's not nice to be in the locations that will potentially see lower wages in the future.
- the_gipsy 5y ago
  Nobody wants to lose privilege.
  - jstx1 5y ago
    I don't know why you're framing it as birthright or privilege. It just comes across as being bitter because someone else has it better than you.
    - the_gipsy 5y ago
      Or does the realization make you bitter?
wiseowise 5y ago
What birthrights?
- skybrian 5y ago
  They mean being fortunate enough to be born in the right country. (Or really, get citizenship there.) I'm not sure how much sense that makes within the EU?
  - wiseowise 5y ago
    Birthright implies you're entitled to something by being born. You aren't entitled to FAANG job by being born somewhere.

jeffbee 5y ago

That doesn't make any sense in this context. As the article says, they have 1000 engineers there and they've been there for 15 years. It is neither new nor outsourcing.

ipaddr 5y ago

But force them into a office in their location.

cletus 5y ago

It really isn't, just like outsourcing to India didn't kill engineering in the developed world.

wiseowise 5y ago
It's a death by thousand cuts.
pjmlp 5y ago
Not sure if the people whose departments got migrated into Wipro, Sasken, TCS would agree, specially those that even had to provide competence transfer sessions.
bobthechef 5y ago

schnevets 5y ago

Alternative take: This is the next step in work from home movement - investing in office space outside of world's most tech-heavy megacities.

babyshake 5y ago

It seems that you can't just be a US company hiring FTEs from other countries for the most part. You either need to hire contractors or setup a foreign subsidiary.

KptMarchewa 5y ago
Google has this subsidiary for a long, long time.

KptMarchewa 5y ago

We are all already working for your companies and other multinationals. There is no giant pool of engineers working for "domestic" companies to be poached, other than domestic outsourcing, who already are contracted by multinationals.

qiskit 5y ago

It's one part cheaper labor, it's one part taking over market, it's one part gaining political influence. Just like defense companies have parts made in all 50 states to gain political influence, google does it internationally. The more offices you open up in EU countries, the more political influence you have within the EU. Also, by opening more offices in EU companies, you make sure no EU headquartered google competitor can arise. For the love of god, why doesn't the EU simply ban/limit google and grow a homegrown google. The EU's incompetence is so astounding. Their population is much larger than our population and they certainly have the talent to create tech giants. China is doing it. Russia is doing it. Why can't the EU do it? At least try. Why are they giving away their market to amazon, apple, google, facebook, etc? They did it with Airbus, why can't they do it with tech? It's much more difficult to create an Airbus than it is to create an amazon, google, apple, facebook, etc. It's insane that after 20+ years after the beginning of the internet/tech boom, the EU is so tech poor. The few that they create have been bought up by american companies.