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The red line was the expansion of the West. Putting troops in Ukraine is one way of satisfying that. The encroachment of NATO was another. Whether that is true

The red line was the expansion of the West. Putting troops in Ukraine is one way of satisfying that. The encroachment of NATO was another. Whether that is true or not, it would have given more weight to Russia/Putin’s argument than stuff about Nazis.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
The thing is defence spending in Europe has plummeted since the fall of the Soviet Union. The threat from the West was never a reasonable justification for invading Ukraine.
timeon 5y ago
> red line Only relevant red line is border of sovereign nation. No NATO member was forced to join - they actually asked to join in order to prevent invasion like the one which is in Ukraine now. > expansion of the West Isn't is cynical to call it expansion of the West while no-one except Russia expanded beyond borders of Russia? It is just expansion of Russia.
- alephnan 5y ago
  > Isn't is cynical to call it expansion of the West while no-one except Russia expanded beyond borders of Russia? It is just expansion of Russia. Nope, no one is denying Russia's expansion, nor China or the next superpower. The only hypocrisy would be recognizing Russia's expansion and not the West. The conservative argument is that the world should be kept as is, and whoever makes the first move is to blame for breaking that balance. Putin thinks the West did it first, before this Ukrainian invasion. The West thinks the Ukrainian invasion is the first move of any party, and its done nothing this whole time
  - lmm 5y ago
    What "expansion of the west"? Estonia et al joined NATO of their own accord, and if sovereignty means anything then they had the right to. (You could certainly make a case about Iraq or Afghanistan, where the west did install a new government by force, but I don't think Russia has been talking about those) > The West thinks the Ukrainian invasion is the first move of any party, and its done nothing this whole time Hardly the first. What has "the west" done that's remotely comparable to Crimea or South Ossetia? This isn't a story of mutual escalation, it's Russia taking as much as it can get away with.
    - vogre 5y ago
      > What has "the west" done that's remotely comparable to Crimea or South Ossetia? Lead the pro-NATO coup in the closest Russia's neighbourgs, armed these countries with heavy weapons, encouraged them to fight Russia and promised to support this fight, then leave and watch Russians and Ukrainians kill each other at the expense of Europe. It didn't started in 2022 or 2014, it escalated for the last 30 years.
      - xdennis 5y ago
        > Lead the pro-NATO coup in the closest Russia's neighbourgs The Revolution of Dignity was about removing the Russian puppet. It was let by the people, who opposed orc control. > armed these countries with heavy weapons Friends help each other like that. > encouraged them to fight Russia As every sovereign nation should on their land. > and promised to support this fight Source. > then leave What NATO soldiers were there to leave? > and watch Russians and Ukrainians kill each other at the expense of Europe. Disgusting point of view. Russians attacked! What were the Ukrainians supposed to do? Surrender to people who want them killed?
      - sidibe 5y ago
        If there was a coup it was an attempted coup by Russia to control Ukraine's government to go against the popular will. Even Yanokovych was open to EU until Putin turned him against. Putin's attempt to directly dictate Ukraine policy worked on the president but the rest of the country did not bend so the leadership fled.
    - vogre 5y ago
      > What has "the west" done that's remotely comparable to Crimea or South Ossetia? by the way West destroyed Iraq, there is a hell now. West destroyed Lybia, there is a hell now. West destroyed Afghanistan, there is a hell now. West destroyed Serbia, ask Serbians, what do they think of NATO There is peace in Crimea, there is a peace in South Ossetia. Nobody is shooting. The life is poor, mostly because of the west sanctions, but people are safe.
      - 5y ago
Aeolun 5y ago
Right up until they went mental, Russia was pretty damn close to the west. Especially with Putin gone and a more moderate leader.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago

The thing is defence spending in Europe has plummeted since the fall of the Soviet Union. The threat from the West was never a reasonable justification for invading Ukraine.

timeon 5y ago

> red line Only relevant red line is border of sovereign nation. No NATO member was forced to join - they actually asked to join in order to prevent invasion like the one which is in Ukraine now. > expansion of the West Isn't is cynical to call it expansion of the West while no-one except Russia expanded beyond borders of Russia? It is just expansion of Russia.

alephnan 5y ago
> Isn't is cynical to call it expansion of the West while no-one except Russia expanded beyond borders of Russia? It is just expansion of Russia. Nope, no one is denying Russia's expansion, nor China or the next superpower. The only hypocrisy would be recognizing Russia's expansion and not the West. The conservative argument is that the world should be kept as is, and whoever makes the first move is to blame for breaking that balance. Putin thinks the West did it first, before this Ukrainian invasion. The West thinks the Ukrainian invasion is the first move of any party, and its done nothing this whole time
- lmm 5y ago
  What "expansion of the west"? Estonia et al joined NATO of their own accord, and if sovereignty means anything then they had the right to. (You could certainly make a case about Iraq or Afghanistan, where the west did install a new government by force, but I don't think Russia has been talking about those) > The West thinks the Ukrainian invasion is the first move of any party, and its done nothing this whole time Hardly the first. What has "the west" done that's remotely comparable to Crimea or South Ossetia? This isn't a story of mutual escalation, it's Russia taking as much as it can get away with.
  - vogre 5y ago
    > What has "the west" done that's remotely comparable to Crimea or South Ossetia? Lead the pro-NATO coup in the closest Russia's neighbourgs, armed these countries with heavy weapons, encouraged them to fight Russia and promised to support this fight, then leave and watch Russians and Ukrainians kill each other at the expense of Europe. It didn't started in 2022 or 2014, it escalated for the last 30 years.
    - xdennis 5y ago
      > Lead the pro-NATO coup in the closest Russia's neighbourgs The Revolution of Dignity was about removing the Russian puppet. It was let by the people, who opposed orc control. > armed these countries with heavy weapons Friends help each other like that. > encouraged them to fight Russia As every sovereign nation should on their land. > and promised to support this fight Source. > then leave What NATO soldiers were there to leave? > and watch Russians and Ukrainians kill each other at the expense of Europe. Disgusting point of view. Russians attacked! What were the Ukrainians supposed to do? Surrender to people who want them killed?
    - sidibe 5y ago
      If there was a coup it was an attempted coup by Russia to control Ukraine's government to go against the popular will. Even Yanokovych was open to EU until Putin turned him against. Putin's attempt to directly dictate Ukraine policy worked on the president but the rest of the country did not bend so the leadership fled.
  - vogre 5y ago
    > What has "the west" done that's remotely comparable to Crimea or South Ossetia? by the way West destroyed Iraq, there is a hell now. West destroyed Lybia, there is a hell now. West destroyed Afghanistan, there is a hell now. West destroyed Serbia, ask Serbians, what do they think of NATO There is peace in Crimea, there is a peace in South Ossetia. Nobody is shooting. The life is poor, mostly because of the west sanctions, but people are safe.
    - 5y ago

Aeolun 5y ago

Right up until they went mental, Russia was pretty damn close to the west. Especially with Putin gone and a more moderate leader.