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This is genuinely not an attempt at flamewar but why can't civilians just leave? Russia is obviously going to win. It's the same with Palestenians, they obvious

This is genuinely not an attempt at flamewar but why can't civilians just leave? Russia is obviously going to win. It's the same with Palestenians, they obviously have not and will not win against Israel. The logical thing to do is to leave, suffer but be sure that your kids will have it better. But I reckon this isn't about logic?

aaronbrethorst 5y ago
Leave where and leave how? In both cases.
- grujicd 5y ago
  Also, if you try to leave as military able men you’re in danger from both sides. One considering you a threat, the other a traitor and deserter, even if you’re just a civilian. Very bad place to be with no good options.
vore 5y ago
First off, I think saying "But I reckon this isn't about logic?" feels a tad incendiary and not particularly charitable to the people in these situations. To the point you're making though, I don't think it's so straightforward in all cases. If you're not well off and your life is being completely uprooted either way, it's a much more complex calculus than just, say, going to Poland.
tablespoon 5y ago
> This is genuinely not an attempt at flamewar but why can't civilians just leave? They are. I think the count is up to two million or something. > Russia is obviously going to win. That's not so obvious. For instance: the US failed to win against much weaker opponents than the Ukrainians. > The logical thing to do is to leave, suffer but be sure that your kids will have it better. But I reckon this isn't about logic? Or it is about logic, but your "logic" is too shallow of an analysis.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >That's not so obvious. For instance: the US failed to win against much weaker opponents than the Ukrainians. Those were opponents in a tribalistic society practicing guerilla warfare hiding across deserts spreading thousands of miles. Ukraine is a developed country with infrastructure that's well documented and known by their enemy. If they take out their vital infrastructure like hospitals, water, power, schools, they're done for. When their cities are reduced to rubble from the shelling, there will be nothing left fighting for, as you can't live and raise kids in wasteland that's been reduced to rubble.
  - hef19898 5y ago
    Guerillas, and partisans, were quite successful in places like Yugoslavia (WW2), Afghanistan (against the USSR and NATO), Ireland (against the British), Belarus (WW2), Poland (WW2), the Finish used some Guerilla style tactics (WW2 against the USSR). Ukraine was less a Guerilla hot bed in WW2 (it was early on, and then again after Stalingrad). None of those places were tribal societies (exception: Afghanistan to a degree) or desert. Nor was the Elephant in the room, Vietnam (they won twice, once against France and once against the US). The only desert based guerilla campaigns in recent history I can think of right now were Algeria (in the 60s) and Arabia (against the Ottomans in WW1). Ukraine is a huge country, cities are a great environment for insurgents. I'd be surprised if that wasn't an option Ukraine's planning. That they didn't have to resort to that kind of warfare yet is quite surprising if you ask me.
    - grujicd 5y ago
      Partisans in WW2 Yugoslavia were successful in mountainous parts of country, where you can hide after guerilla actions. Flatlands and big cities were liberated only when Red Army came along on its way to Berlin. We’re not talking about fighting only. There has to be a local support for guerilla to eat and sleep. That might work in primarily agricultural countriside but not in cities built around industry.
      - hef19898 5y ago
heyhihello 5y ago
It’s not as easy to leave as you think. In the case of Palestinians especially, finding easy citizenship elsewhere is not simple.
dgellow 5y ago
Lot of people left. People who stayed couldn’t leave or decided to defend their country, culture, and values. Also keep in mind that Russian are targeting citizens and refuse to keep paths open to let people flee safely.
fabian2k 5y ago
Russia bombarded the designated areas where civilians were supposed to be able to flee cities. There were also mines found in some of those. And the humanitarian corridors Russia recently designated lead to Belarus and Russia, which is not where the people want to be. The Russian effort to "help the civilians" are just deeply cynical PR and misdirection.
- 331c8c71 5y ago
  - sofixa 5y ago
    > How do you know that? Because CNN? There are videos of people getting blown up, eyewitness accounts, and Ukrainian official accounts. It's not something debatable. > Have you maybe talked to people who didn't want to go there? Or it is the Ukranian government decided "their" people don't want to go there? So you think that many people would want to be refugees in the country actually invading and trying to destroy their own ? That's ridiculous and everyone knows it. The fact that few, if any, Ukrainians seem to be taking this option, confirm this.
    - 331c8c71 5y ago
      > There are videos of people getting blown up, eyewitness accounts, and Ukrainian official accounts. It's not something debatable. Obviously people are getting hurt and it's sad and tragic. Russian forces targeting civilians is a different matter though which needs to be substantiated. We simple can't know right now. > So you think that many people would want to be refugees in the country actually invading and trying to destroy their own ? I think that people sitting in the shelters for days might be actually quite open to a possibility of getting to a safe place. > The fact that few, if any, Ukrainians seem to be taking this option, confirm this. Have you considered a possibility that Ukranian authorities are effectively preventing massive evacuations towards russia/belarus because it would look bad for them in press.
      - 5y ago
nakedrobot2 5y ago
The women and children are leaving. There are four of them in our flat (grandmother, mother, two daughters) here in the Czech Republic. The men are staying and fighting. The men who were in our country have gone back to fight. Fuck Putin
- morsch 5y ago
  Most men are not permitted to leave. https://visitukraine.today/de/blog/102/exceptions-when-a-man-can-leave-ukraine-under-martial-law https://visitukraine.today/de/blog/102/exceptions-when-a-man...
atkailash 5y ago
golemiprague 5y ago
MichaelRazum 5y ago
Don't think the logic is the same. First the Palestinians aren't under attack, they can just stop firing rockets. Second I think there are a lot of people who profit from a cold/warm war, especially there.
- oblio 5y ago
  The Palestinians are obviously under attack, let's not kid ourselves. To this day I don't know where I stand in this conflict, since I understand many of the subtleties of the conflict. But that part is clear, Palestine <<is>> under attack. Israely is knowingly "salamy tactic-ing" Palestine. They're slowly chipping away at their regions. They're destroying Palestine through administrative abuse. It's like slowly being crushed by one of those car compactors. I have no idea what the correct reactions in this situation is.
  - MichaelRazum 5y ago
    So you deny that Hamas a terrorist organization send rockets at civilians? They got their territory. Why send rockets? The reason it is rational for them. They need to be in power and get the funding through destruction. By the way some more example where the hate comes from: https://www.jns.org/eu-unpublished-report-finds-palestinian-textbooks-contain-anti-semitism-incitement/ https://www.jns.org/eu-unpublished-report-finds-palestinian-...
    - oblio 5y ago
      I'm not denying anything. I'm just saying that if you were a member of a population that's being squeezed out of their land, day by day, in a country that at best, if you try to integrate, treats you like a second hand citizen, you can't say for sure what your reaction would be. You could try to pretend it would be a peaceful reaction, but you can't say for sure. Nobody can.
      - MichaelRazum 5y ago
        I think you have to distinguish. First the Arab citizens aren't treated any differently that any other citizen. Maybe the personal feelings might be that they are treated differently but definitely not on the institutional level. They are a lot of Doctors and people in high positions there, so they enjoy kind of the best life standard they could have in the middle east. "squeezed out of their land". The Hamas got untouched territory. They could have build a paradise there. Nobody wants this part of the land. So again why send rockets? There is simple no reason - only to stay in power and get the donations.
disambiguation 5y ago
I think about this too.. that if I was in their shoes I would get out of there ASAP. But this is still a very impoverished part of the world. Income per capita is ~$2k / yr. So, most simply don't have the means to leave. I think most are counting on being able to just stay out of the way and waiting for this to "blow over".
xdennis 5y ago
> Russia is obviously going to win. It's not. It's going to be a repeat of Afghanistan for them. > The logical thing to do is to leave That's logical only for a coward. Many people won't give in to a bully, especially when they're winning. (Independent sources are saying 5800 dead orcs on 3 March. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukrai... )
- lamontcg 5y ago
  > 5800 dead orcs please, grow up, this is an actual human war we're trying to discuss. live in reality. there's no orcs and hobbits and wizards here. i can only stomach about 30 seconds of reading the comments section on reddit before running into mindless stuff like this.

aaronbrethorst 5y ago

Leave where and leave how? In both cases.

grujicd 5y ago
Also, if you try to leave as military able men you’re in danger from both sides. One considering you a threat, the other a traitor and deserter, even if you’re just a civilian. Very bad place to be with no good options.

vore 5y ago

First off, I think saying "But I reckon this isn't about logic?" feels a tad incendiary and not particularly charitable to the people in these situations. To the point you're making though, I don't think it's so straightforward in all cases. If you're not well off and your life is being completely uprooted either way, it's a much more complex calculus than just, say, going to Poland.

tablespoon 5y ago

> This is genuinely not an attempt at flamewar but why can't civilians just leave? They are. I think the count is up to two million or something. > Russia is obviously going to win. That's not so obvious. For instance: the US failed to win against much weaker opponents than the Ukrainians. > The logical thing to do is to leave, suffer but be sure that your kids will have it better. But I reckon this isn't about logic? Or it is about logic, but your "logic" is too shallow of an analysis.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
>That's not so obvious. For instance: the US failed to win against much weaker opponents than the Ukrainians. Those were opponents in a tribalistic society practicing guerilla warfare hiding across deserts spreading thousands of miles. Ukraine is a developed country with infrastructure that's well documented and known by their enemy. If they take out their vital infrastructure like hospitals, water, power, schools, they're done for. When their cities are reduced to rubble from the shelling, there will be nothing left fighting for, as you can't live and raise kids in wasteland that's been reduced to rubble.
- hef19898 5y ago
  Guerillas, and partisans, were quite successful in places like Yugoslavia (WW2), Afghanistan (against the USSR and NATO), Ireland (against the British), Belarus (WW2), Poland (WW2), the Finish used some Guerilla style tactics (WW2 against the USSR). Ukraine was less a Guerilla hot bed in WW2 (it was early on, and then again after Stalingrad). None of those places were tribal societies (exception: Afghanistan to a degree) or desert. Nor was the Elephant in the room, Vietnam (they won twice, once against France and once against the US). The only desert based guerilla campaigns in recent history I can think of right now were Algeria (in the 60s) and Arabia (against the Ottomans in WW1). Ukraine is a huge country, cities are a great environment for insurgents. I'd be surprised if that wasn't an option Ukraine's planning. That they didn't have to resort to that kind of warfare yet is quite surprising if you ask me.
  - grujicd 5y ago
    Partisans in WW2 Yugoslavia were successful in mountainous parts of country, where you can hide after guerilla actions. Flatlands and big cities were liberated only when Red Army came along on its way to Berlin. We’re not talking about fighting only. There has to be a local support for guerilla to eat and sleep. That might work in primarily agricultural countriside but not in cities built around industry.
    - hef19898 5y ago

heyhihello 5y ago

It’s not as easy to leave as you think. In the case of Palestinians especially, finding easy citizenship elsewhere is not simple.

dgellow 5y ago

Lot of people left. People who stayed couldn’t leave or decided to defend their country, culture, and values. Also keep in mind that Russian are targeting citizens and refuse to keep paths open to let people flee safely.

fabian2k 5y ago

Russia bombarded the designated areas where civilians were supposed to be able to flee cities. There were also mines found in some of those. And the humanitarian corridors Russia recently designated lead to Belarus and Russia, which is not where the people want to be. The Russian effort to "help the civilians" are just deeply cynical PR and misdirection.

331c8c71 5y ago
- sofixa 5y ago
  > How do you know that? Because CNN? There are videos of people getting blown up, eyewitness accounts, and Ukrainian official accounts. It's not something debatable. > Have you maybe talked to people who didn't want to go there? Or it is the Ukranian government decided "their" people don't want to go there? So you think that many people would want to be refugees in the country actually invading and trying to destroy their own ? That's ridiculous and everyone knows it. The fact that few, if any, Ukrainians seem to be taking this option, confirm this.
  - 331c8c71 5y ago
    > There are videos of people getting blown up, eyewitness accounts, and Ukrainian official accounts. It's not something debatable. Obviously people are getting hurt and it's sad and tragic. Russian forces targeting civilians is a different matter though which needs to be substantiated. We simple can't know right now. > So you think that many people would want to be refugees in the country actually invading and trying to destroy their own ? I think that people sitting in the shelters for days might be actually quite open to a possibility of getting to a safe place. > The fact that few, if any, Ukrainians seem to be taking this option, confirm this. Have you considered a possibility that Ukranian authorities are effectively preventing massive evacuations towards russia/belarus because it would look bad for them in press.
    - 5y ago

nakedrobot2 5y ago

The women and children are leaving. There are four of them in our flat (grandmother, mother, two daughters) here in the Czech Republic. The men are staying and fighting. The men who were in our country have gone back to fight. Fuck Putin

morsch 5y ago
Most men are not permitted to leave. https://visitukraine.today/de/blog/102/exceptions-when-a-man-can-leave-ukraine-under-martial-law https://visitukraine.today/de/blog/102/exceptions-when-a-man...

atkailash 5y ago

golemiprague 5y ago

MichaelRazum 5y ago

Don't think the logic is the same. First the Palestinians aren't under attack, they can just stop firing rockets. Second I think there are a lot of people who profit from a cold/warm war, especially there.

oblio 5y ago
The Palestinians are obviously under attack, let's not kid ourselves. To this day I don't know where I stand in this conflict, since I understand many of the subtleties of the conflict. But that part is clear, Palestine <<is>> under attack. Israely is knowingly "salamy tactic-ing" Palestine. They're slowly chipping away at their regions. They're destroying Palestine through administrative abuse. It's like slowly being crushed by one of those car compactors. I have no idea what the correct reactions in this situation is.
- MichaelRazum 5y ago
  So you deny that Hamas a terrorist organization send rockets at civilians? They got their territory. Why send rockets? The reason it is rational for them. They need to be in power and get the funding through destruction. By the way some more example where the hate comes from: https://www.jns.org/eu-unpublished-report-finds-palestinian-textbooks-contain-anti-semitism-incitement/ https://www.jns.org/eu-unpublished-report-finds-palestinian-...
  - oblio 5y ago
    I'm not denying anything. I'm just saying that if you were a member of a population that's being squeezed out of their land, day by day, in a country that at best, if you try to integrate, treats you like a second hand citizen, you can't say for sure what your reaction would be. You could try to pretend it would be a peaceful reaction, but you can't say for sure. Nobody can.
    - MichaelRazum 5y ago
      I think you have to distinguish. First the Arab citizens aren't treated any differently that any other citizen. Maybe the personal feelings might be that they are treated differently but definitely not on the institutional level. They are a lot of Doctors and people in high positions there, so they enjoy kind of the best life standard they could have in the middle east. "squeezed out of their land". The Hamas got untouched territory. They could have build a paradise there. Nobody wants this part of the land. So again why send rockets? There is simple no reason - only to stay in power and get the donations.

disambiguation 5y ago

I think about this too.. that if I was in their shoes I would get out of there ASAP. But this is still a very impoverished part of the world. Income per capita is ~$2k / yr. So, most simply don't have the means to leave. I think most are counting on being able to just stay out of the way and waiting for this to "blow over".

xdennis 5y ago

> Russia is obviously going to win. It's not. It's going to be a repeat of Afghanistan for them. > The logical thing to do is to leave That's logical only for a coward. Many people won't give in to a bully, especially when they're winning. (Independent sources are saying 5800 dead orcs on 3 March. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukrai... )

lamontcg 5y ago
> 5800 dead orcs please, grow up, this is an actual human war we're trying to discuss. live in reality. there's no orcs and hobbits and wizards here. i can only stomach about 30 seconds of reading the comments section on reddit before running into mindless stuff like this.