7 ms·

The US could have some of these nice things too if the zoning law didn't ban all business in residential areas. It baffles me how the US has no shops / restaura

by ZYinMD 5y ago

The US could have some of these nice things too if the zoning law didn't ban all business in residential areas. It baffles me how the US has no shops / restaurants / convenience stores in residential areas and nobody questioned it over half a century.

whatshisface 5y ago
There is no "the zoning law," it is all local government and many places don't have those kinds of laws.
- ertian 5y ago
  Many places do. It was very much the norm as cities were expanding rapidly in the 20th century. Something like 75+% of land in major metropolitan areas in North America are zoned for single-family housing only[1]. And of course that's not evenly distributed between cities, and much of the remaining 25% is still zoned as exclusively residential or commercial. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/18/upshot/cities-across-america-question-single-family-zoning.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/18/upshot/cities...
- cowsandmilk 5y ago
  > many places don't have those kinds of laws. Even in places without zoning codes, you’ll find plenty of restrictions that shape what is built and what it looks like from setbacks to parking minimums. See Houston for example https://kinder.rice.edu/urbanedge/2020/01/09/no-zoning-in-Houston-there-are-workarounds https://kinder.rice.edu/urbanedge/2020/01/09/no-zoning-in-Ho...
  - jmkb 5y ago
    Many Houston neighborhoods are quite livable on foot and bike, if you don't mind a little perspiration. There are shops and restaurants scattered all around, sidewalks, even some multiuse trails. The mainstream culture is still overwhelmingly automobile-centric, though. Travel to your place of work, or to any particular shop/restaurant, will likely require a car. ...Somewhat related: In Houston I lived within walking distance of two grocery stores, Kroger and Fiesta. A lot of customers walked to these stores, and they'd often use the store's shopping carts to transport purchases back home. So naturally the stores were always losing carts. Kroger solved this problem by installing an electronic geofence and a wheel lock mechanism on each shopping cart, so they couldn't leave the parking lot. Fiesta hired a man in a pickup truck to cruise the neighborhood and bring the empty carts back. And customers cooperated by leaving the carts near the road. IIRC different Fiesta stores marked their carts with different bright neon colors, so they could be returned to the correct store if they wandered afield. Anytime I wanted to buy more than I could carry, of course, I'd go to Fiesta. (This was years ago; it's probably all razed for condo development now.)
    - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
      I'll never get this. Except for really flat surfaces, shopping carts are the most annoyning thing to push around. If not using a bicycle, at least use a (maybe even compactly foldable) shopping trolley/buggy/Hackenporsche?
dhosek 5y ago
This is a post WWII development. I grew up in Stickney, a Chicago suburb where as late as the 70s, there were still commercial buildings scattered among the residential area (there was a tavern half a block from my elementary school, a grocery store across from a tavern¹ mid-block on a stretch of street that was otherwise all residential (modulo three churches). There were a number of houses that betrayed their original retail uses in their architecture elsewhere in the community. ⸻ 1. Only recently did I learn that this particular tavern was established by the Capone operation and the cupola on the roof was used to keep watch for Federal agents so that the open alcohol sales taking place during prohibition could be hidden in case of a raid.
superfrank 5y ago
> It baffles me how the US has no shops / restaurants / convenience stores in residential areas and nobody questioned it over half a century. That's definitely not true. It's not the norm, but I can think of plenty of places I've lived or visited that had neighborhoods that were a mix of residential and shops. Here's an example of an area like that in Portland: https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5627602,-122.6949984,3a,75y,110.01h,57.08t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1sTuz4bTJn8tFOgkq4AmW2Fw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i38?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5627602,-122.6949984,3a,75y,...
- bullfightonmars 5y ago
  Yep, and those neighborhoods were all built before the 1940s.
- beebmam 5y ago
  Capitol Hill in Seattle is another example. Just an awesome, fun place to live if you're young-ish
trinovantes 5y ago
We have multiple generations growing up with suburbs as the norm and have never traveled outside North America. As the saying goes: "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness". It's basically impossible to change urban design here.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > It's basically impossible to change urban design here. Is it? It's not that long ago that highways were driven intentionally through Black neighborhoods [1]. What humans can do they can also undo, all it needs is politicians with guts. [1]: https://www.npr.org/2021/04/07/984784455/a-brief-history-of-how-racism-shaped-interstate-highways https://www.npr.org/2021/04/07/984784455/a-brief-history-of-...
  - pif 5y ago
    > all it needs is politicians with guts Good politicians are of no use to a country where half the people can vote for Trump.
    - sam_goody 5y ago
      Stop for a moment, breath deep, and think. Is it really possible that half the country (or more, according to latest polls) are bat crazy? Is it possible that you are getting information from news sources and thinkers that are biased and reflect one storyline; while the other half of the country gets their facts and forms their opinions from sources that are biased the other way and reflect a different story-line? Which makes you think they have gone off the kilter and have no logic, and makes them think the exact same thing about you. I mostly headlines from RCP, BUT I make a point of reading both CNN and FOX, while assuming BOTH are bald faced liars. Between the two I can at least hope to get a little balance, and ferret out a few possible facts. Any conversation is good if not done in bad faith, and I always assume good faith. Amazing what you can learn that way, and even more amazing how much progress can be made in local politics. Someone once told me "Fight for your views, and don't back down from anyone. And always remember, you might even be correct." :D A good politician is one who can say across the aisle, "Did you vote for Trump out of rabid-red-and-orange, or are you trying to accomplish something? Maybe there is a way to accomplish that in a way that makes us both happy." Don't assume this is naive; I have had cause to be somewhat involved in local politics. And, sure, you need showmanship, but sincerely looking for solutions actually works.
ejb999 5y ago
first of all, that is not true - there are places that allow mixed usage - and it is not 'the US' that doesn't allow it - zoning is almost always a local function, i.e. state and city/town governments make these decisions. If resident in a certain area don't allow mixed-use areas, its because the voters in those places don't want it. If the voters in 'anytown, USA' wanted a mixed use district - they would have it. Obviously it is not what most people want. I know I don't want it, and would vote against in it my area. Who wants to buy a house in some quiet area and then have a combo 7-11/gas station popup across the street so that some huge corporation and make just a bit more money at the expense of a nice quiet residential area being destroyed?
- hgomersall 5y ago
  Surely the solution to bad facilities is not "no facilities"? Growing up with shops, houses and businesses pretty mingled, it seems like a much better approach than zoning them all - you just need proper planning regulation and careful thought around what is and isn't allowed.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  > If the voters in 'anytown, USA' wanted a mixed use district - they would have it. Obviously it is not what most people want. This assumes people participate in local politics. I would amend this to, "obviously most people don't want it enough to attend town halls and learn whose business interests is blocking progress"
  - ejb999 5y ago
    >>"obviously most people don't want it enough to attend town halls and learn whose business interests is blocking progress" So you should decide what people want, not the people that live there? People do show up at the polls when they want something, this is not what they want, so they don't show up. You know who wants it? huge corporations that would be more than happy to destroy quiet residential areas so they can sell $6 cups of coffee and increase the value of their stock.
    - 5y ago
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>It baffles me how the US has no shops / restaurants / convenience stores in residential areas and nobody questioned it over half a century. Because it's pretty much impossible to allow business like that without also allowing the more loud and unsightly commercial activity that white collar folk get their panties in a massive knot over. It's very hard to allow general commerce without also letting the plumber pave his back yard and use it to park his fleet of vans. Yes you can play whack-a-mole with specific requirements but anything comprehensive just approximates onerous zoning.
HWR_14 5y ago
Neither of your statements is true. Mixed use developments are extremely popular and are growing, at least in urbanish areas. And NYC famously has them mixed, with restaurants/shops in the bottom and housing on top. A lot of tv shows were filmed around that. Heck, a former president lived in a tower with his name on it where the lowest floors were all ssholping and restaurants In fact, I'm trying to remember the last proposed development I saw that wasn't mixed use, unless it was a 5 minute walk from a shopping district. Well, except for the suburbs.
- flyingfences 5y ago
  Your "the suburbs" dismisses most small cities and large towns in the US.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    I mean, it holds true in small cities I've seen too. As for towns with tons of space, they'll probably spread out. You need a certainly density to support a mixed use development, and people who decide to live in lower density areas are making a choice to trade certain advantages (job density, walkability) for living space and/or lawns. So they're not going to opt into mixed use living.
- alistairSH 5y ago
  "Mixed use developments" as I see them in the DC metro region are only a single, limited form of truly mixed development. Yes, we're building apartment blocks with retail on the ground level. No, we aren't re-zoning single-family home zones into something else. At least not with any regularity. No, we aren't dropping minimum parking requirements in favor of market forces. Yes, we still subsidize driving through "free" on-street parking. Looking at my neighborhood, I'm about 1.5 miles from the subway and 2 miles from the closet grocer. Not bad by suburban standards, but it sure would be nice to have a market/bodega down the block. But, it can't happen because between me and the grocer is ALL residential. You couldn't buy a corner lot and build a shop if you wanted. At least not without spending mega-$$$ on buying off politicians to update planning maps.
chasd00 5y ago
I live in a residential area and have all those things in a max 15min walking radius ...Dallas Texas even. Maybe you mean exurbs? I almost move to a neighborhood where each house is on about 3 acres and, yeah, there you’re not walking anywhere. The trade off is no sirens/gunfire at night nor any crime to speak of. Plus you can see the stars.
ianbicking 5y ago
I live in Minneapolis and there's often commercial property in residential areas that was built before modern zoning. I think this is fairly common. But these commercial properties seem poorly used. Maybe some turn into studios, some storage, some vacant. It's uncommon that they are retail, though maybe it's infeasible to get them permitted for many retail functions (partly due to regulation, partly due to zoning since renovations are limited). But really it just doesn't feel like the demand is there.
- chestnuttrees 5y ago
  Think about e.g. 46th + Grand or 38th + Nicollet though? Small commercial corridors within residential areas can become the heart of the neighborhood. I agree re: retail though, in my experience there and elsewhere it’s groceries + restaurants/cafes that drive the neighborhood commercial engine, and if there’s enough then you can see traditional retail. (Not an urbanist just a human).

by ZYinMD 5y ago

whatshisface 5y ago

There is no "the zoning law," it is all local government and many places don't have those kinds of laws.

ertian 5y ago
Many places do. It was very much the norm as cities were expanding rapidly in the 20th century. Something like 75+% of land in major metropolitan areas in North America are zoned for single-family housing only[1]. And of course that's not evenly distributed between cities, and much of the remaining 25% is still zoned as exclusively residential or commercial. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/18/upshot/cities-across-america-question-single-family-zoning.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/18/upshot/cities...
cowsandmilk 5y ago
> many places don't have those kinds of laws. Even in places without zoning codes, you’ll find plenty of restrictions that shape what is built and what it looks like from setbacks to parking minimums. See Houston for example https://kinder.rice.edu/urbanedge/2020/01/09/no-zoning-in-Houston-there-are-workarounds https://kinder.rice.edu/urbanedge/2020/01/09/no-zoning-in-Ho...
- jmkb 5y ago
  Many Houston neighborhoods are quite livable on foot and bike, if you don't mind a little perspiration. There are shops and restaurants scattered all around, sidewalks, even some multiuse trails. The mainstream culture is still overwhelmingly automobile-centric, though. Travel to your place of work, or to any particular shop/restaurant, will likely require a car. ...Somewhat related: In Houston I lived within walking distance of two grocery stores, Kroger and Fiesta. A lot of customers walked to these stores, and they'd often use the store's shopping carts to transport purchases back home. So naturally the stores were always losing carts. Kroger solved this problem by installing an electronic geofence and a wheel lock mechanism on each shopping cart, so they couldn't leave the parking lot. Fiesta hired a man in a pickup truck to cruise the neighborhood and bring the empty carts back. And customers cooperated by leaving the carts near the road. IIRC different Fiesta stores marked their carts with different bright neon colors, so they could be returned to the correct store if they wandered afield. Anytime I wanted to buy more than I could carry, of course, I'd go to Fiesta. (This was years ago; it's probably all razed for condo development now.)
  - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
    I'll never get this. Except for really flat surfaces, shopping carts are the most annoyning thing to push around. If not using a bicycle, at least use a (maybe even compactly foldable) shopping trolley/buggy/Hackenporsche?

dhosek 5y ago

This is a post WWII development. I grew up in Stickney, a Chicago suburb where as late as the 70s, there were still commercial buildings scattered among the residential area (there was a tavern half a block from my elementary school, a grocery store across from a tavern¹ mid-block on a stretch of street that was otherwise all residential (modulo three churches). There were a number of houses that betrayed their original retail uses in their architecture elsewhere in the community. ⸻ 1. Only recently did I learn that this particular tavern was established by the Capone operation and the cupola on the roof was used to keep watch for Federal agents so that the open alcohol sales taking place during prohibition could be hidden in case of a raid.

superfrank 5y ago

> It baffles me how the US has no shops / restaurants / convenience stores in residential areas and nobody questioned it over half a century. That's definitely not true. It's not the norm, but I can think of plenty of places I've lived or visited that had neighborhoods that were a mix of residential and shops. Here's an example of an area like that in Portland: https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5627602,-122.6949984,3a,75y,110.01h,57.08t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1sTuz4bTJn8tFOgkq4AmW2Fw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i38?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5627602,-122.6949984,3a,75y,...

bullfightonmars 5y ago
Yep, and those neighborhoods were all built before the 1940s.
beebmam 5y ago
Capitol Hill in Seattle is another example. Just an awesome, fun place to live if you're young-ish

trinovantes 5y ago

We have multiple generations growing up with suburbs as the norm and have never traveled outside North America. As the saying goes: "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness". It's basically impossible to change urban design here.

mschuster91 5y ago
> It's basically impossible to change urban design here. Is it? It's not that long ago that highways were driven intentionally through Black neighborhoods [1]. What humans can do they can also undo, all it needs is politicians with guts. [1]: https://www.npr.org/2021/04/07/984784455/a-brief-history-of-how-racism-shaped-interstate-highways https://www.npr.org/2021/04/07/984784455/a-brief-history-of-...
- pif 5y ago
  > all it needs is politicians with guts Good politicians are of no use to a country where half the people can vote for Trump.
  - sam_goody 5y ago
    Stop for a moment, breath deep, and think. Is it really possible that half the country (or more, according to latest polls) are bat crazy? Is it possible that you are getting information from news sources and thinkers that are biased and reflect one storyline; while the other half of the country gets their facts and forms their opinions from sources that are biased the other way and reflect a different story-line? Which makes you think they have gone off the kilter and have no logic, and makes them think the exact same thing about you. I mostly headlines from RCP, BUT I make a point of reading both CNN and FOX, while assuming BOTH are bald faced liars. Between the two I can at least hope to get a little balance, and ferret out a few possible facts. Any conversation is good if not done in bad faith, and I always assume good faith. Amazing what you can learn that way, and even more amazing how much progress can be made in local politics. Someone once told me "Fight for your views, and don't back down from anyone. And always remember, you might even be correct." :D A good politician is one who can say across the aisle, "Did you vote for Trump out of rabid-red-and-orange, or are you trying to accomplish something? Maybe there is a way to accomplish that in a way that makes us both happy." Don't assume this is naive; I have had cause to be somewhat involved in local politics. And, sure, you need showmanship, but sincerely looking for solutions actually works.

ejb999 5y ago

first of all, that is not true - there are places that allow mixed usage - and it is not 'the US' that doesn't allow it - zoning is almost always a local function, i.e. state and city/town governments make these decisions. If resident in a certain area don't allow mixed-use areas, its because the voters in those places don't want it. If the voters in 'anytown, USA' wanted a mixed use district - they would have it. Obviously it is not what most people want. I know I don't want it, and would vote against in it my area. Who wants to buy a house in some quiet area and then have a combo 7-11/gas station popup across the street so that some huge corporation and make just a bit more money at the expense of a nice quiet residential area being destroyed?

hgomersall 5y ago
Surely the solution to bad facilities is not "no facilities"? Growing up with shops, houses and businesses pretty mingled, it seems like a much better approach than zoning them all - you just need proper planning regulation and careful thought around what is and isn't allowed.
jazzyjackson 5y ago
> If the voters in 'anytown, USA' wanted a mixed use district - they would have it. Obviously it is not what most people want. This assumes people participate in local politics. I would amend this to, "obviously most people don't want it enough to attend town halls and learn whose business interests is blocking progress"
- ejb999 5y ago
  >>"obviously most people don't want it enough to attend town halls and learn whose business interests is blocking progress" So you should decide what people want, not the people that live there? People do show up at the polls when they want something, this is not what they want, so they don't show up. You know who wants it? huge corporations that would be more than happy to destroy quiet residential areas so they can sell $6 cups of coffee and increase the value of their stock.
  - 5y ago

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

>It baffles me how the US has no shops / restaurants / convenience stores in residential areas and nobody questioned it over half a century. Because it's pretty much impossible to allow business like that without also allowing the more loud and unsightly commercial activity that white collar folk get their panties in a massive knot over. It's very hard to allow general commerce without also letting the plumber pave his back yard and use it to park his fleet of vans. Yes you can play whack-a-mole with specific requirements but anything comprehensive just approximates onerous zoning.

HWR_14 5y ago

Neither of your statements is true. Mixed use developments are extremely popular and are growing, at least in urbanish areas. And NYC famously has them mixed, with restaurants/shops in the bottom and housing on top. A lot of tv shows were filmed around that. Heck, a former president lived in a tower with his name on it where the lowest floors were all ssholping and restaurants In fact, I'm trying to remember the last proposed development I saw that wasn't mixed use, unless it was a 5 minute walk from a shopping district. Well, except for the suburbs.

flyingfences 5y ago
Your "the suburbs" dismisses most small cities and large towns in the US.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  I mean, it holds true in small cities I've seen too. As for towns with tons of space, they'll probably spread out. You need a certainly density to support a mixed use development, and people who decide to live in lower density areas are making a choice to trade certain advantages (job density, walkability) for living space and/or lawns. So they're not going to opt into mixed use living.
alistairSH 5y ago
"Mixed use developments" as I see them in the DC metro region are only a single, limited form of truly mixed development. Yes, we're building apartment blocks with retail on the ground level. No, we aren't re-zoning single-family home zones into something else. At least not with any regularity. No, we aren't dropping minimum parking requirements in favor of market forces. Yes, we still subsidize driving through "free" on-street parking. Looking at my neighborhood, I'm about 1.5 miles from the subway and 2 miles from the closet grocer. Not bad by suburban standards, but it sure would be nice to have a market/bodega down the block. But, it can't happen because between me and the grocer is ALL residential. You couldn't buy a corner lot and build a shop if you wanted. At least not without spending mega-$$$ on buying off politicians to update planning maps.

chasd00 5y ago

I live in a residential area and have all those things in a max 15min walking radius ...Dallas Texas even. Maybe you mean exurbs? I almost move to a neighborhood where each house is on about 3 acres and, yeah, there you’re not walking anywhere. The trade off is no sirens/gunfire at night nor any crime to speak of. Plus you can see the stars.

ianbicking 5y ago

I live in Minneapolis and there's often commercial property in residential areas that was built before modern zoning. I think this is fairly common. But these commercial properties seem poorly used. Maybe some turn into studios, some storage, some vacant. It's uncommon that they are retail, though maybe it's infeasible to get them permitted for many retail functions (partly due to regulation, partly due to zoning since renovations are limited). But really it just doesn't feel like the demand is there.

chestnuttrees 5y ago
Think about e.g. 46th + Grand or 38th + Nicollet though? Small commercial corridors within residential areas can become the heart of the neighborhood. I agree re: retail though, in my experience there and elsewhere it’s groceries + restaurants/cafes that drive the neighborhood commercial engine, and if there’s enough then you can see traditional retail. (Not an urbanist just a human).