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“Society as a whole needs to be engaged in the project of raising the next generation, and that breaks down if having children is treated as an individual choic

“Society as a whole needs to be engaged in the project of raising the next generation, and that breaks down if having children is treated as an individual choice. Raising kids in America—especially in urban areas among more educated people—is just such a sad, atomized experience” This entire paragraph is three assertions given without evidence. Feel free to own these ideas as if they are truths but arguing axiomatically from them is just wrong. For me, I think you can find a plethora of examples throughout history that show positive societal contributions from people divorced from child rearing and raising a child is the very definition of personal choice. Finally, I’m in about the most liberal, urban, educated environment you can live in the US and I can’t imagine how much more engaged the community could be in for parenting. It’s a source of constant joy to me how engaged my family is with our community and vice versa. Perhaps your view on this reflects the specific choices you made in where to live and raise your family? Try not to extrapolate too much from a singular data point.

rayiner 5y ago
> This entire paragraph is three assertions given without evidence. Feel free to own these ideas as if they are truths but arguing axiomatically from them is just wrong. Sure, morality and the purpose of life are generally axiomatic. The notion that society should elevate personal choice, instead of impressing upon people expected behaviors, is also axiomatic. But there’s also an empirical element. In North America, virtually all population growth will come from Latin American immigrants who have more traditional notions of family. In Europe it’ll be Muslims. Individualistic culture is at the height of its power, but there’s a good chance it’s on the wane. > Finally, I’m in about the most liberal, urban, educated environment you can live in the US and I can’t imagine how much more engaged the community could be in for parenting. It’s a source of constant joy to me how engaged my family is with our community and vice versa. Except there’s no kids! We’re down from children being 36% of the population in 1960 to 22%. In places like San Francisco it’s 13%. There’s network effects to parenting and being a kid that disappear when the concentration of parents and kids decreases. Parenting is a lonely experience in a modern American city, especially if you have kids in your 20s. You may know other parents, but you have to “organize something” to see them socially. The “roving band of neighborhood kids” is a distant memory. (I’m reminded of the show “Hey Arnold,” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hey_Arnold https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hey_Arnold!, which depicts urban life full of kids in a way that seems almost anachronistic.)
- kasey_junk 5y ago
  Arguing axiomatically then, I think the decline in roving bands of kids is directly tied to 2 completely different issues than you. The first is the end result of 50 years of car centric city planning. It is unsafe for kids to rove in many places. The second is the gutting of local public schools. Because wealthy parents are now encouraged to transport their children to far away schools and non-school affiliated activities the family spends all of its time in cars away from their neighborhood. And for what it’s worth roving bands of kids are a common occurrence here in Hyde Park Chicago. It’s one of the reasons I live here.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    Common in Oak Park, too. You came out and visited this area, Rayiner! Not our fault you decided to move to an exurb. :)

rayiner 5y ago

> This entire paragraph is three assertions given without evidence. Feel free to own these ideas as if they are truths but arguing axiomatically from them is just wrong. Sure, morality and the purpose of life are generally axiomatic. The notion that society should elevate personal choice, instead of impressing upon people expected behaviors, is also axiomatic. But there’s also an empirical element. In North America, virtually all population growth will come from Latin American immigrants who have more traditional notions of family. In Europe it’ll be Muslims. Individualistic culture is at the height of its power, but there’s a good chance it’s on the wane. > Finally, I’m in about the most liberal, urban, educated environment you can live in the US and I can’t imagine how much more engaged the community could be in for parenting. It’s a source of constant joy to me how engaged my family is with our community and vice versa. Except there’s no kids! We’re down from children being 36% of the population in 1960 to 22%. In places like San Francisco it’s 13%. There’s network effects to parenting and being a kid that disappear when the concentration of parents and kids decreases. Parenting is a lonely experience in a modern American city, especially if you have kids in your 20s. You may know other parents, but you have to “organize something” to see them socially. The “roving band of neighborhood kids” is a distant memory. (I’m reminded of the show “Hey Arnold,” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hey_Arnold https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hey_Arnold!, which depicts urban life full of kids in a way that seems almost anachronistic.)

kasey_junk 5y ago
Arguing axiomatically then, I think the decline in roving bands of kids is directly tied to 2 completely different issues than you. The first is the end result of 50 years of car centric city planning. It is unsafe for kids to rove in many places. The second is the gutting of local public schools. Because wealthy parents are now encouraged to transport their children to far away schools and non-school affiliated activities the family spends all of its time in cars away from their neighborhood. And for what it’s worth roving bands of kids are a common occurrence here in Hyde Park Chicago. It’s one of the reasons I live here.
- tptacek 5y ago
  Common in Oak Park, too. You came out and visited this area, Rayiner! Not our fault you decided to move to an exurb. :)