4 ms·

With the west looking to cut off Russian energy and the world economy staring at a ton of misery due to the sanctions a green new deal like stimulus could be a

by m_ke 5y ago

With the west looking to cut off Russian energy and the world economy staring at a ton of misery due to the sanctions a green new deal like stimulus could be a great way to tackle all 3 problems.

chmod600 5y ago
The green new deal will just be a blank check, managed by politicians. It'll be a catch all where every political wishlist item and special interest will jump on the bandwagon with zero scrutiny or oversight. I am not very hopeful that it will have a good result. Let's focus on high ROI climate mitigation projects driven by the people who actually know what they are doing and can execute on those ideas.
- DFHippie 5y ago
  The Green New Deal has actual proposals. In other words, it is not a blank check. Writing it off with platitudes is not a serious response. Conversely, saying "Let's focus on high ROI climate mitigation projects" etc. is just writing yourself a blank check. There is no concrete proposal, just an assertion that certain people should get the power and funding. Give them the cash and they'll solve it for us.
  - tick_tock_tick 5y ago
    Yeah but they were shit proposals that just tried to attach a bunch of random progressive ideas to carbon neutral. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_New_Deal#Green_New_Deal_Resolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_New_Deal#Green_New_Deal_... > "Guaranteeing a job with a family-sustaining wage, adequate family and medical leave, paid vacations, and retirement security to all people of the United States." "Providing all people of the United States with – (i) high-quality health care; (ii) affordable, safe, and adequate housing; (iii) economic security; and (iv) access to clean water, clean air, healthy and affordable food, and nature."
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - belval 5y ago
    Going through the Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_New_Deal#Green_New_Deal_Resolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_New_Deal#Green_New_Deal_...) it is pretty much a blank check, saying "we have to be 100% carbon free by 2050" isn't an actual proposal, it's just a goal. I am not American, this is an actual good faith assessment as I don't have a favorite "party".
    - DFHippie 5y ago
      The Green New Deal, as it says in that article, is not a particular proposed piece of legislation but a collection of proposals. Nonetheless, each of these does contain particular proposals. And you didn't pick a proposal, you picked a goal. A sample actual proposal is "invest x dollars over y years upgrading the electrical grid as a necessary precursor to more widespread adoption of variable but renewable power sources". "Invest x dollars over y years to subsidize the transition to electrified transportation", i.e., tax incentives and grants to build charging stations and get people to buy electric cars -- another proposal. These have actually been worked out in excruciating detail in one Green New Deal-esque legislative proposal: the Build Back Better plan. They had to work it out in detail because they had to put a pricetag to it so they could submit it to the Congressional Budget Office. This legislation has a vast amount of detail, but maddeningly its opponents deride it both for being too detailed ("Who could read this doorstop!? We don't know what we're voting on! Government red tape!") and for being a blank check.
  - m_ke 5y ago
    Here's the original proposal from Sanders' campaign: https://berniesanders.com/issues/green-new-deal/ https://berniesanders.com/issues/green-new-deal/
syshum 5y ago
Wait, so your solution to massive economic harm caused by government regulations, and money printing is to increase government regulations and print even more money... That's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off for them last time government tried to solve climate change we got 10% corn based ethanol gas which current research indicates has made things WORSE not better.[1] [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-yDKeya4SU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-yDKeya4SU
programmarchy 5y ago
Pipe dream. You can’t run a military on green energy. The West needs to re-industrialize, quickly, or it’ll lose the next Cold War.
- landemva 5y ago
  The US military runs engines without emissions controls because ... war. It is embarassing to waste so much wealth on endless conflicts. DoD spend continues to be a white-collar welfare program.
- amusedcyclist 5y ago
  1. The Cold War wasn't won by the military. 2. You can definitely run a military on green energy 3. The world is moving towards more cooperation, not less. 4. Yes the west should re-industrialize by electrifying everything and replacing all the dirty energy production with green energy production
  - programmarchy 5y ago
    1. Couldn’t have been won without it though. 2. Ships, jets, and rockets all require fuel. Coal is required to produce steel. 3. Could have been, but this trend is reversing. The only place becoming more unified might be Europe, and the relationship between China and Russia. We are shifting away from the unipolar world order of dollar hegemony. 4. Would agree if nuclear is counted.
    - landemva 5y ago
      Europe unification will crack within a decade. Southern Europe is strangled by euro without effective ability to shift course. It will be okay, like brexit.
      - programmarchy 5y ago
        Can you elaborate a bit? Doesn't the Ukraine/Russia conflict imposing an existential threat on Europe change your calculation? For example, we see Germany re-militarizing [1], which would have been unthinkable even a few years ago. Security trumps economics. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/27/world/europe/germany-ukraine-russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/27/world/europe/germany-ukra...

by m_ke 5y ago

With the west looking to cut off Russian energy and the world economy staring at a ton of misery due to the sanctions a green new deal like stimulus could be a great way to tackle all 3 problems.

chmod600 5y ago

The green new deal will just be a blank check, managed by politicians. It'll be a catch all where every political wishlist item and special interest will jump on the bandwagon with zero scrutiny or oversight. I am not very hopeful that it will have a good result. Let's focus on high ROI climate mitigation projects driven by the people who actually know what they are doing and can execute on those ideas.

DFHippie 5y ago
The Green New Deal has actual proposals. In other words, it is not a blank check. Writing it off with platitudes is not a serious response. Conversely, saying "Let's focus on high ROI climate mitigation projects" etc. is just writing yourself a blank check. There is no concrete proposal, just an assertion that certain people should get the power and funding. Give them the cash and they'll solve it for us.
- tick_tock_tick 5y ago
  Yeah but they were shit proposals that just tried to attach a bunch of random progressive ideas to carbon neutral. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_New_Deal#Green_New_Deal_Resolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_New_Deal#Green_New_Deal_... > "Guaranteeing a job with a family-sustaining wage, adequate family and medical leave, paid vacations, and retirement security to all people of the United States." "Providing all people of the United States with – (i) high-quality health care; (ii) affordable, safe, and adequate housing; (iii) economic security; and (iv) access to clean water, clean air, healthy and affordable food, and nature."
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- belval 5y ago
  Going through the Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_New_Deal#Green_New_Deal_Resolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_New_Deal#Green_New_Deal_...) it is pretty much a blank check, saying "we have to be 100% carbon free by 2050" isn't an actual proposal, it's just a goal. I am not American, this is an actual good faith assessment as I don't have a favorite "party".
  - DFHippie 5y ago
    The Green New Deal, as it says in that article, is not a particular proposed piece of legislation but a collection of proposals. Nonetheless, each of these does contain particular proposals. And you didn't pick a proposal, you picked a goal. A sample actual proposal is "invest x dollars over y years upgrading the electrical grid as a necessary precursor to more widespread adoption of variable but renewable power sources". "Invest x dollars over y years to subsidize the transition to electrified transportation", i.e., tax incentives and grants to build charging stations and get people to buy electric cars -- another proposal. These have actually been worked out in excruciating detail in one Green New Deal-esque legislative proposal: the Build Back Better plan. They had to work it out in detail because they had to put a pricetag to it so they could submit it to the Congressional Budget Office. This legislation has a vast amount of detail, but maddeningly its opponents deride it both for being too detailed ("Who could read this doorstop!? We don't know what we're voting on! Government red tape!") and for being a blank check.
- m_ke 5y ago
  Here's the original proposal from Sanders' campaign: https://berniesanders.com/issues/green-new-deal/ https://berniesanders.com/issues/green-new-deal/

syshum 5y ago

Wait, so your solution to massive economic harm caused by government regulations, and money printing is to increase government regulations and print even more money... That's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off for them last time government tried to solve climate change we got 10% corn based ethanol gas which current research indicates has made things WORSE not better.[1] [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-yDKeya4SU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-yDKeya4SU

programmarchy 5y ago

Pipe dream. You can’t run a military on green energy. The West needs to re-industrialize, quickly, or it’ll lose the next Cold War.

landemva 5y ago
The US military runs engines without emissions controls because ... war. It is embarassing to waste so much wealth on endless conflicts. DoD spend continues to be a white-collar welfare program.
amusedcyclist 5y ago
1. The Cold War wasn't won by the military. 2. You can definitely run a military on green energy 3. The world is moving towards more cooperation, not less. 4. Yes the west should re-industrialize by electrifying everything and replacing all the dirty energy production with green energy production
- programmarchy 5y ago
  1. Couldn’t have been won without it though. 2. Ships, jets, and rockets all require fuel. Coal is required to produce steel. 3. Could have been, but this trend is reversing. The only place becoming more unified might be Europe, and the relationship between China and Russia. We are shifting away from the unipolar world order of dollar hegemony. 4. Would agree if nuclear is counted.
  - landemva 5y ago
    Europe unification will crack within a decade. Southern Europe is strangled by euro without effective ability to shift course. It will be okay, like brexit.
    - programmarchy 5y ago
      Can you elaborate a bit? Doesn't the Ukraine/Russia conflict imposing an existential threat on Europe change your calculation? For example, we see Germany re-militarizing [1], which would have been unthinkable even a few years ago. Security trumps economics. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/27/world/europe/germany-ukraine-russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/27/world/europe/germany-ukra...