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1. This is a very American-centric piece of navel gazing. Much of the world was strongly opposed to several of the conflicts mentioned here, including the inva
by beloch 5y ago
1. This is a very American-centric piece of navel gazing. Much of the world was strongly opposed to several of the conflicts mentioned here, including the invasion of Iraq. This is what-about-ism. The fact that some of the countries now opposing Russia have spotted pasts does not justify the largest invasion on European soil since WWII.
2. The Yemen war, as deplorable as it may be, has not posed the risk of global thermonuclear war.
3. Yes, the Ukrainians are using some propaganda and disinformation, just as the Russians are. They are in a war for their nations survival and are using all the tools they have at their disposal.
4. The argument that Russia is invading Ukraine because it wants "space" around its borders to separate it from NATO is hogwash. This invasion, if successful, will accomplish precisely the opposite. If Ukraine had joined NATO, Russia would have 1 more NATO country on it's borders. After taking over Ukraine Russia will gain all of Ukraine's NATO neighbours as it's own and potentially drive Finland and Sweden into NATO as well.
5. A big part of why the EU has enjoyed peace since WWII, even if other parts of the world EU members have become embroiled with haven't, is because European countries do not invade European countries anymore. The UN, NATO, and the world's economy are all designed to bring about this stability. If Russia manages to profit from this invasion, that order is overturned. The problem with this is that there are multiple nuclear states in Europe. A move away from defined, stable borders risks the entire world's fate. The stakes are higher in this invasion than in any since WWII.
6. The opposition to Russia, aside from Ukraine, is trying to use non-violent methods to force Russia to abandon the invasion. It's debatable if they will work. Economic sanctions haven't worked in the past, but we haven't seen economic sanctions like these before. Targeting oligarchs directly in particular is an interesting play. Self-flagellation, navel gazing, and moral relativism all have their place in Western society, but one must hope that we apply adequately firm will to bring the World back from the brink of nuclear war that Putin seems so willing to casually flirt with. The real double standard here is, in truth, a nuclear one.
- blisterpeanuts 5y agoJust regarding your point #4: actually, the Russians are opposed to Ukraine joining NATO and that is probably their main reason for invading. Were Ukraine to become a full NATO member, it would be forever immune from Russian aspirations of reconstituting the old USSR empire which of course included Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakstan, and several others. Furthermore, if Ukraine joined, Georgia might be next, constituting a ring of NATO military installations right on Russia's western and southern flanks, and in the heart of what they consider the "near frontier". From their point of view, this would be unacceptable, and the few remaining Russia experts in the U.S. government and in western Europe are surely aware of this. This is not to say the Russians are justified in their very violent action in Ukraine, but it's important to understand their motivations if they are to be countered on any level short of all-out conventional war or, God forbid, nuclear armageddon. I do agree with your point #6, that "firm will to bring the world back from the brink" is required here. I don't think the various "cancel culture" sanctions will do anything useful -- might put pressure on the oligarchy, or might not. Does a billionaire care that Portugal (or whoever) has impounded his $20m yacht? Or that suddenly his UK bank accounts are frozen? I don't really know. But it's important to keep in mind human nature. Pushing the Russians too hard, e.g. cutting off Visa/Mastercard/Paypal, boycotting Russian athletes, etc., may backfire and create more sympathy for Putin's stance, thus prolonging the conflict and maybe escalating it disastrously.
- yks 5y agoSo Russians are afraid of the countries joining NATO because they won't be able to invade them, got it. I mean, that's actually true as far as public Russian opinion goes but it also means that the NATO expansion is the most ethical thing to possibly do in the international politics.
- blisterpeanuts 5y agoProbably they feel about as happy about NATO on their doorstep, as the U.S. would feel about Mexico entering into a Chinese or Russian military alliance. The U.S. would not accept it, in other words.
- yks 5y agoExcept the US have not committed genocides in Mexico in the past, not planning on invading Mexico now or in the future, and there is DEFINITELY no talk of "Mexicans and Americans are same people" so that kind of whataboutism is really grasping at straws.
- orwin 5y agoI've read that the reasons for both wars could be that GDP/hab of Ukraine threaten to surpass Russia. Each time. They cannot accept than an ex USSR state could do that much better economically than them.
- sidibe 5y agoThat ship sailed long ago in the Baltics
- adolph 5y ago> After taking over Ukraine Is a punic war to install a puppet not outside the range of possible goals?
- elforce002 5y ago1. I agree with you to a certain extent. Saying "what-about-ism" to somewhat invalidate any discussion making parallels to other events is not good. Look the premise "...not justify the largest invasion on European soil since WWII". As long as our values align together, we'll condemn but tolerate. 2. Again, as long as we morally condemn the act but tolerate actions not affecting me ("...has not posed the risk of global thermonuclear war"), it's ok. 3. I agree with you. 4. Now, this is an interesting take. I don't know why Russia thinks the EU is its enemy. I don't think the EU wants to go to war with Russia over resources. The other side of the coin: back in the 90's, US + EU + Russia "agreed" no more expansion to the East. NATO kept expanding itself. If I (Russia) was to make an stand, I'll definitely find a diplomatic way to avoid more eastern countries to join NATO. That doesn't work? Well, Since I won't want anyone to put any type of weapon just in case I go "rogue", I'll use any means necessary to avoid that. 5. I agree with you. The EU is so intertwined it'll be next to impossible for someone like Hitler to raise up again. None of us know war and we don't want to know it. Much less a nuclear war. 6. There so much Russia will take until things get sour for the rest of the world. If Russia "wins" this will polarize the world again (Cold War 2). If Russia "loses", this will create or increase bitterness against the West. Other countries will start making alliances to counteract NATO's economical power. I'm trying to be as impartial as possible. The conflict is complex. The US won't tolerate any type of action near them (ie. Cuba) nor the EU for that matter. I can't imagine what Ukrainians are going through right now. Let's hope the conflict doesn't escalate and they can agree to stop this war.
- lostmsu 5y ago> The other side of the coin: back in the 90's, US + EU + Russia "agreed" no more expansion to the East. Stop repeating this nonsense or show the treaty.