5 ms·

I've gone down this path quite recently and got pretty far. This is for a low-volume, hand-built, high-margin electronic device that is likely to find a home mo

by dom96 5y ago

I've gone down this path quite recently and got pretty far. This is for a low-volume, hand-built, high-margin electronic device that is likely to find a home mostly among hobbyists. I've tackled most challenges: learning how to build a PCB, learning how to solder, figuring out how to build the enclosure for the device and programming the firmware. I'm effectively ready to sell it. The remaining hurdle appears to be CE certification (or FCC if you're in the US). I know of some competitors that are doing similar things to me without CE, but I am really not comfortable doing it this way. While self-certifying for CE is doable it does not appear easy and if you screw it up it sounds like you can get in a lot of trouble. I'm still not sure about the best path forward but am likely to do my best with self-certification and set up a LLC in case things go awry. If anyone has any tips regarding certification specifically please do share.

SOLAR_FIELDS 5y ago
Two possibilities. Depending on what you are doing you might be able to purchase modules that are pre-certified and avoid certification that way. For example, if one wanted to have a product that uses WiFi normally you need FCC certification for that - but it’s also possible to purchase WiFi modules that are already FCC certified and avoid having to go through that process yourself. The second tip if for some reason you have to certify yourself is that when it comes to bureaucratic processes that you don’t want to get wrong and that you aren’t super familiar with I’ve had a lot of luck with finding people on Upwork or Fiverr that specialize in that particular process.
- dom96 5y ago
  Thanks for the advice! Indeed, I was planning to use pre-certified WiFi modules (ESP32 specifically). There are a couple of things here though: A) How can I trust that my supplier actually did the right tests? Do I just trust that they follow whatever spec (that passes CE) Espressif gave them and that's enough? B) From what I've read, if all the components you use to build an electronic device are CE approved, that doesn't mean that your device is. This seems to be boiled down to as "CE + CE != CE" a lot of the time I've seen it. Is it wrong? Fiverr/Upwork is definitely not something I've considered. Will give these a try.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 5y ago
    For A, yes, you need to ensure the vendor is reputable and that their testing is trustworthy. Espressif, however, moves a lot of chips and I think it is safe to assume the manufacturer is reputable if they are supplying other well known ESP32 hardware - can maybe check importyeti to see who other people are using. For B, yes, you are correct, but my understanding is that as long as you don’t have any other “intentional” emitters (for example Wifi or BLE) you only need the unintentional if your device is battery powered or uses a certified power supply. Then it should be quite cheap and simpler to get the full certification (think $500-$1000 instead of an order of magnitude more)
  - asdefghyk 5y ago
    RE ".....How can I trust that my supplier actually did the right tests? Do I just trust that they follow whatever spec (that passes CE) Espressif gave them and that's enough?..." This is a very important point. It is not unknown for products to have completely fake certifications including a fake lab report and fake certificates. What you need to do is ask for certification report and certification certificate. These documents will show the testing lab. It should be accredited to do the test. You need to contact the claimed testing lab and quote the approval number and check all the approval details match . ie the company, product is correct. Could also get a test lab of your choice to review the accreditation documents and product to verify them ( not retesting) just review to check accreditation.
benhurmarcel 5y ago
A relative designed and built a physical product and when through that problem. According to his experience the hardest requirements were about high voltage and electromagnetic interference (both how your device interferes with others, and how others affect yours). He also had mechanical requirements but that was fairly easy to test himself. He was able to design his device to not use any high voltage. Basically buy the power supply off the shelf and don't enclose it in your product. For EMI, it's hard and expensive. Specialized companies will test and certify your device, but this is too expensive. He found a laboratory in a local university for a reasonable price who was able to help design, define some minimum testing to reasonably ensure compliance without breaking the bank, and realize the tests. It was long and a significant budget. A lot of his BOM are components from China. His conclusion is that you cannot trust in any way their CE marking. Some pass, others don't. They are all marked. You need to test yourself. For low volume "artisanal" products, it looks like a lot of people just don't perform rigorous (professional) tests, they just test whatever they at home, mark it and hope they never get into trouble.
- dom96 5y ago
  > A lot of his BOM are components from China. His conclusion is that you cannot trust in any way their CE marking. Some pass, others don't. They are all marked. You need to test yourself. yeah, that's tricky. Testing whether an ESP32 complies with CE sounds very difficult and pricy. I suppose if they are bought in the EU though that it's up to the supplier that you buy it from to make sure it's CE compliant. > For EMI, it's hard and expensive. Specialized companies will test and certify your device, but this is too expensive. Yeah, I actually did find a UK-based test lab that does it more cheaply. Indeed I planned to send my device there and mainly just verify EMI for CE conformance of my device. It's good to get some confirmation that this is the main test required.
  - benhurmarcel 5y ago
    My relative's device was controlled by an Arduino so indeed that was easier to trust. The untrustworthy Chinese components were more actuators, pumps, and so on, so easier to test than an MCU. One advice concerning EMI is that it's one thing to certify the finished design, but it's tricky to design it right if you're not experienced with EMI. Before testing it's worth having some advice and design review with the specialists to see if they think the tests will pass and how to improve it.

by dom96 5y ago

SOLAR_FIELDS 5y ago

Two possibilities. Depending on what you are doing you might be able to purchase modules that are pre-certified and avoid certification that way. For example, if one wanted to have a product that uses WiFi normally you need FCC certification for that - but it’s also possible to purchase WiFi modules that are already FCC certified and avoid having to go through that process yourself. The second tip if for some reason you have to certify yourself is that when it comes to bureaucratic processes that you don’t want to get wrong and that you aren’t super familiar with I’ve had a lot of luck with finding people on Upwork or Fiverr that specialize in that particular process.

dom96 5y ago
Thanks for the advice! Indeed, I was planning to use pre-certified WiFi modules (ESP32 specifically). There are a couple of things here though: A) How can I trust that my supplier actually did the right tests? Do I just trust that they follow whatever spec (that passes CE) Espressif gave them and that's enough? B) From what I've read, if all the components you use to build an electronic device are CE approved, that doesn't mean that your device is. This seems to be boiled down to as "CE + CE != CE" a lot of the time I've seen it. Is it wrong? Fiverr/Upwork is definitely not something I've considered. Will give these a try.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 5y ago
  For A, yes, you need to ensure the vendor is reputable and that their testing is trustworthy. Espressif, however, moves a lot of chips and I think it is safe to assume the manufacturer is reputable if they are supplying other well known ESP32 hardware - can maybe check importyeti to see who other people are using. For B, yes, you are correct, but my understanding is that as long as you don’t have any other “intentional” emitters (for example Wifi or BLE) you only need the unintentional if your device is battery powered or uses a certified power supply. Then it should be quite cheap and simpler to get the full certification (think $500-$1000 instead of an order of magnitude more)
- asdefghyk 5y ago
  RE ".....How can I trust that my supplier actually did the right tests? Do I just trust that they follow whatever spec (that passes CE) Espressif gave them and that's enough?..." This is a very important point. It is not unknown for products to have completely fake certifications including a fake lab report and fake certificates. What you need to do is ask for certification report and certification certificate. These documents will show the testing lab. It should be accredited to do the test. You need to contact the claimed testing lab and quote the approval number and check all the approval details match . ie the company, product is correct. Could also get a test lab of your choice to review the accreditation documents and product to verify them ( not retesting) just review to check accreditation.

benhurmarcel 5y ago

A relative designed and built a physical product and when through that problem. According to his experience the hardest requirements were about high voltage and electromagnetic interference (both how your device interferes with others, and how others affect yours). He also had mechanical requirements but that was fairly easy to test himself. He was able to design his device to not use any high voltage. Basically buy the power supply off the shelf and don't enclose it in your product. For EMI, it's hard and expensive. Specialized companies will test and certify your device, but this is too expensive. He found a laboratory in a local university for a reasonable price who was able to help design, define some minimum testing to reasonably ensure compliance without breaking the bank, and realize the tests. It was long and a significant budget. A lot of his BOM are components from China. His conclusion is that you cannot trust in any way their CE marking. Some pass, others don't. They are all marked. You need to test yourself. For low volume "artisanal" products, it looks like a lot of people just don't perform rigorous (professional) tests, they just test whatever they at home, mark it and hope they never get into trouble.

dom96 5y ago
> A lot of his BOM are components from China. His conclusion is that you cannot trust in any way their CE marking. Some pass, others don't. They are all marked. You need to test yourself. yeah, that's tricky. Testing whether an ESP32 complies with CE sounds very difficult and pricy. I suppose if they are bought in the EU though that it's up to the supplier that you buy it from to make sure it's CE compliant. > For EMI, it's hard and expensive. Specialized companies will test and certify your device, but this is too expensive. Yeah, I actually did find a UK-based test lab that does it more cheaply. Indeed I planned to send my device there and mainly just verify EMI for CE conformance of my device. It's good to get some confirmation that this is the main test required.
- benhurmarcel 5y ago
  My relative's device was controlled by an Arduino so indeed that was easier to trust. The untrustworthy Chinese components were more actuators, pumps, and so on, so easier to test than an MCU. One advice concerning EMI is that it's one thing to certify the finished design, but it's tricky to design it right if you're not experienced with EMI. Before testing it's worth having some advice and design review with the specialists to see if they think the tests will pass and how to improve it.