5 ms·

I think this could be solved by having the duress code be as simple as entering your PIN backwards

by amlib 5y ago

littlecranky67 5y ago
Way easier, just have a set of 9 icons (flower, sun, etc) shown after every pin entry. Your "true" icon will proceed, all other icons will trigger duress and proceed.
- justinpowers 5y ago
  This is brilliant. Can you offer any more insight or background to this? Is there a name for this technique?
  - littlecranky67 5y ago
    No, it is an obvious solution to anyone who wants to solve the problem, and have never seen this in the wild (probably because I live in a relatively safe country where you don't have to fear to get mugged at an ATM). EDIT: This should be coupled with a "secret" icon that is shown (or a specific order of the 9 icons you have to chose from) to prevent MITM/Phishing attacks. If you realize the icon/order is not the one you are used to, you are being phished.
- reaperducer 5y ago
  Way easier, just have a set of 9 icons (flower, sun, etc) shown after every pin entry. Your "true" icon will proceed, all other icons will trigger duress and proceed. This is familiar. I had a bank that, when you set up your PIN, required you to also pick an icon. There was a flower, and a cat, and a dog, and some other generic pictures. When you put your card in the ATM and entered your PIN, you also had to pick the right icon. I wonder if this was the start of a duress system the bank was setting up. The bank ended up getting eaten by another bank and then another bank, and the icon selection system went away.
  - james-skemp 5y ago
    Did MSN/Microsoft maybe do this many years ago? For some reason I don't associate it with a bank (they have a personal phrase they include in official messages), but do with one of the SSO accounts I had, and feel pretty confident it wasn't Google. Maybe Yahoo?
  - KennyBlanken 5y ago
    The pictures are to prevent account compromise via keylogger. Even if they get your login and password, they can't get into the account.
- jethro_tell 5y ago
  Wouldn't people just wait till you step away from the ATM then?
j4yav 5y ago
How would it know if you entered it backwards if it was 1221, for example?
- TacticalCoder 5y ago
  Well the obvious solution if one was to use this scheme (which I'm not saying is good or bad) would be, at PIN creation time, to disable palindrome.
  - chii 5y ago
    which removes a lot of possible pins, thus reducing the actual security of pins.
    - remram 5y ago
      Exactly 1% of 4-digit pins are palindromes so that is very acceptable.
cortesoft 5y ago
That eliminates all palindrome numbers as possible pins, which is bad for security.
- gizmo686 5y ago
  At 4 digits, with a 10 character alphabet, you are looking at a 1% reduction in pin space. Contrast this with the 90% reduction in pin-space you get by not using a 5th digit.
- benatkin 5y ago
  Because it reduces the number of possible combinations? Good reason to keep moving from 4 digits to at least 6 digits.
- 3np 5y ago
  Found the person with a palindrome pin
  - cortesoft 5y ago
    No, only the reverse of my PIN is a palindrome.
martyvis 5y ago
This was patented over 35 years ago but not implemented, and only spread as a good hoax. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATM_SafetyPIN_software?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATM_SafetyPIN_software?wprov=s...
kevml 5y ago
Remembering this seems hard. And doing it under pressure seems very hard. I’ve forgotten my own zip code at a gas station before.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jamesmontalvo3 5y ago
Alternatively: same PIN/password as normal, but alter the last character. Better if it’s any incorrect last character. That allows you to stick close to your normal routine while in a stressful situation.

I think this could be solved by having the duress code be as simple as entering your PIN backwards

by amlib 5y ago

I think this could be solved by having the duress code be as simple as entering your PIN backwards

Way easier, just have a set of 9 icons (flower, sun, etc) shown after every pin entry. Your "true" icon will proceed, all other icons will trigger duress and proceed.

justinpowers 5y ago
This is brilliant. Can you offer any more insight or background to this? Is there a name for this technique?
- littlecranky67 5y ago
  No, it is an obvious solution to anyone who wants to solve the problem, and have never seen this in the wild (probably because I live in a relatively safe country where you don't have to fear to get mugged at an ATM). EDIT: This should be coupled with a "secret" icon that is shown (or a specific order of the 9 icons you have to chose from) to prevent MITM/Phishing attacks. If you realize the icon/order is not the one you are used to, you are being phished.
reaperducer 5y ago
Way easier, just have a set of 9 icons (flower, sun, etc) shown after every pin entry. Your "true" icon will proceed, all other icons will trigger duress and proceed. This is familiar. I had a bank that, when you set up your PIN, required you to also pick an icon. There was a flower, and a cat, and a dog, and some other generic pictures. When you put your card in the ATM and entered your PIN, you also had to pick the right icon. I wonder if this was the start of a duress system the bank was setting up. The bank ended up getting eaten by another bank and then another bank, and the icon selection system went away.
- james-skemp 5y ago
  Did MSN/Microsoft maybe do this many years ago? For some reason I don't associate it with a bank (they have a personal phrase they include in official messages), but do with one of the SSO accounts I had, and feel pretty confident it wasn't Google. Maybe Yahoo?
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  The pictures are to prevent account compromise via keylogger. Even if they get your login and password, they can't get into the account.
jethro_tell 5y ago
Wouldn't people just wait till you step away from the ATM then?

j4yav 5y ago

How would it know if you entered it backwards if it was 1221, for example?

TacticalCoder 5y ago
Well the obvious solution if one was to use this scheme (which I'm not saying is good or bad) would be, at PIN creation time, to disable palindrome.
- chii 5y ago
  which removes a lot of possible pins, thus reducing the actual security of pins.
  - remram 5y ago
    Exactly 1% of 4-digit pins are palindromes so that is very acceptable.

cortesoft 5y ago

That eliminates all palindrome numbers as possible pins, which is bad for security.

gizmo686 5y ago
At 4 digits, with a 10 character alphabet, you are looking at a 1% reduction in pin space. Contrast this with the 90% reduction in pin-space you get by not using a 5th digit.
benatkin 5y ago
Because it reduces the number of possible combinations? Good reason to keep moving from 4 digits to at least 6 digits.
3np 5y ago
Found the person with a palindrome pin
- cortesoft 5y ago
  No, only the reverse of my PIN is a palindrome.

martyvis 5y ago

This was patented over 35 years ago but not implemented, and only spread as a good hoax. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATM_SafetyPIN_software?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATM_SafetyPIN_software?wprov=s...

kevml 5y ago

Remembering this seems hard. And doing it under pressure seems very hard. I’ve forgotten my own zip code at a gas station before.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jamesmontalvo3 5y ago

Alternatively: same PIN/password as normal, but alter the last character. Better if it’s any incorrect last character. That allows you to stick close to your normal routine while in a stressful situation.