6 ms·

It's terrible, but on the other hand I wish my parents / step parents had been courageous enough to do it rather than cowardly trying to make my life hell inste

by diob 5y ago

It's terrible, but on the other hand I wish my parents / step parents had been courageous enough to do it rather than cowardly trying to make my life hell instead.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
The more resources available for parents who shouldn’t become parents to stay childfree, the better. Everyone decries the falling fertility rate. Let’s talk about how many kids who are in foster care every year (~400k in the US), who are in toxic homes, or who are homeless. We have a long way to go. (I donate to non profits who subsidize voluntary permanent birth control and who advocate for the childfree)
- rayiner 5y ago
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Reproducing for the sake of doing so is clearing becoming passé [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]. High level, the world needs less people [7]. Lots of roads to get there, all valid as long as they don't cause harm in the process. Live your best life, and for many, that means being childfree. If you're a decent, responsible parent, more power to you, as long as you're willing to shoulder the costs of your children. Culture and passing of it down is seemingly overrated in the current era (outside of some belief systems), and even the Mongol Empire ran out of steam (despite Genghis Khan's progeny and reproductive efforts). Build strong institutions that will withstand the test of time, versus traditional families, marriages, and progeny. Arguably, this is an indicator of an advanced civilization, versus relying on families and tribalism for strength and culture. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/19/growing-share-of-childless-adults-in-u-s-dont-expect-to-ever-have-children/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/19/growing-sha... [3] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/childless-older-adult-population.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/childles... [4] https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-rise-of-childless-america https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-rise-of-childless-america [5] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/03/29/childfree-women-parenting-parenthood-no-kids/3153546002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/03/29/childf... [6] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/05/upshot/americans-are-having-fewer-babies-they-told-us-why.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/05/upshot/americans-are-havi... [7] https://www.nationalgeographic.org/topics/resource-library-human-impacts-environment/ https://www.nationalgeographic.org/topics/resource-library-h...
    - satellite2 5y ago
      The Repugnant Conclusion
      - toomuchtodo 5y ago
        I had never heard of this, but I have been looking for this sort of explanation of this model, thank you for mentioning it! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_addition_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_addition_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasons_and_Persons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasons_and_Persons https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/repugnant-conclusion/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/repugnant-conclusion/
    - rayiner 5y ago
      > Lots of roads to get there, all valid as long as they don't cause harm in the process. Live your best life I understand the axioms that lead to this assertion, but I reject the premise. It’s a terminal-stage evolution of western individualism. You don’t just have an obligation to yourself. The “child free” deprive their parents of grand kids, their siblings’ children of nieces and nephews, their neighbors of a bustling joyful society full of children. From a technologist point of view it’s also just sad and defeatist. At the limit, we could solve climate change by just all killing our selves. You’re proposing to do that, just slower.
      - toomuchtodo 5y ago
        Children owe their parents and extended family nothing, as they had no choice being brought into the world. What they do with their life is entirely their choosing. Not everyone considers children joyful, but instead a burdensome, unnecessary obligation they can opt out of in nations with strong human rights protections. There is a difference between suicide as a species and an individual voluntarily choosing to not reproduce (for economic, lifestyle, or other reasons). Life is lived and enjoyed, not owed. I assume these differences in views are cultural, and will continue to drift as cohorts age in and age out of the populace.
        5y ago
  - Permit 5y ago
    What an unusually low-value comment from an otherwise high-value commenter. Do you take issue with the label “child free” or with the fact that some couples would prefer not to have children? Or maybe with the idea that an organization advocates for these people?
    - istjohn 5y ago
      It's silly for people who've decided they don't want to be parents to then style themselves as marginalized and build an identity around opposition to their imagined persecution. There's nothing wrong with not reproducing, but really you have more in common with parents of one child than they have in common with parents of six children. I don't have any pets. Do I need a special interest group?
      - wizzwizz4 5y ago
        > Do I need a special interest group? It depends on the culture that surrounds you.
    - rayiner 5y ago
      All of the above. I’m from a Muslim country—in Islam, getting married and having children (if you’re able) is a moral duty. I was never a practicing Muslim, but I believe that this view is basically correct. Society as a whole needs to be engaged in the project of raising the next generation, and that breaks down if having children is treated as an individual choice. Raising kids in America—especially in urban areas among more educated people—is just such a sad, atomized experience. Not only compared to back home in Bangladesh, but even my own upbringing in America. America has been good to my family but I’m genuinely worried whether we came here in some sort of terminal stage of American society. I’m terrified my own kids are going to adopt these ideas. What would have been the point of leaving all our friends and family behind to immigrate here if our family just dies out on this stupid continent?
      - arrow7000 5y ago
        So because you think it's a moral duty other people shouldn't get access to birth control?
  - VictorPath 5y ago
    > Luckily this is a self-correcting problem Being as people have been around for at least 500 centuries, and birthrate are leveling off, if this were going to "self-correct", it would have already.

by diob 5y ago

It's terrible, but on the other hand I wish my parents / step parents had been courageous enough to do it rather than cowardly trying to make my life hell instead.

toomuchtodo 5y ago

The more resources available for parents who shouldn’t become parents to stay childfree, the better. Everyone decries the falling fertility rate. Let’s talk about how many kids who are in foster care every year (~400k in the US), who are in toxic homes, or who are homeless. We have a long way to go. (I donate to non profits who subsidize voluntary permanent birth control and who advocate for the childfree)

rayiner 5y ago
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Reproducing for the sake of doing so is clearing becoming passé [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]. High level, the world needs less people [7]. Lots of roads to get there, all valid as long as they don't cause harm in the process. Live your best life, and for many, that means being childfree. If you're a decent, responsible parent, more power to you, as long as you're willing to shoulder the costs of your children. Culture and passing of it down is seemingly overrated in the current era (outside of some belief systems), and even the Mongol Empire ran out of steam (despite Genghis Khan's progeny and reproductive efforts). Build strong institutions that will withstand the test of time, versus traditional families, marriages, and progeny. Arguably, this is an indicator of an advanced civilization, versus relying on families and tribalism for strength and culture. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/19/growing-share-of-childless-adults-in-u-s-dont-expect-to-ever-have-children/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/19/growing-sha... [3] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/childless-older-adult-population.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/childles... [4] https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-rise-of-childless-america https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-rise-of-childless-america [5] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/03/29/childfree-women-parenting-parenthood-no-kids/3153546002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/03/29/childf... [6] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/05/upshot/americans-are-having-fewer-babies-they-told-us-why.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/05/upshot/americans-are-havi... [7] https://www.nationalgeographic.org/topics/resource-library-human-impacts-environment/ https://www.nationalgeographic.org/topics/resource-library-h...
  - satellite2 5y ago
    The Repugnant Conclusion
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      I had never heard of this, but I have been looking for this sort of explanation of this model, thank you for mentioning it! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_addition_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_addition_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasons_and_Persons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasons_and_Persons https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/repugnant-conclusion/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/repugnant-conclusion/
  - rayiner 5y ago
    > Lots of roads to get there, all valid as long as they don't cause harm in the process. Live your best life I understand the axioms that lead to this assertion, but I reject the premise. It’s a terminal-stage evolution of western individualism. You don’t just have an obligation to yourself. The “child free” deprive their parents of grand kids, their siblings’ children of nieces and nephews, their neighbors of a bustling joyful society full of children. From a technologist point of view it’s also just sad and defeatist. At the limit, we could solve climate change by just all killing our selves. You’re proposing to do that, just slower.
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      Children owe their parents and extended family nothing, as they had no choice being brought into the world. What they do with their life is entirely their choosing. Not everyone considers children joyful, but instead a burdensome, unnecessary obligation they can opt out of in nations with strong human rights protections. There is a difference between suicide as a species and an individual voluntarily choosing to not reproduce (for economic, lifestyle, or other reasons). Life is lived and enjoyed, not owed. I assume these differences in views are cultural, and will continue to drift as cohorts age in and age out of the populace.
      - 5y ago
- Permit 5y ago
  What an unusually low-value comment from an otherwise high-value commenter. Do you take issue with the label “child free” or with the fact that some couples would prefer not to have children? Or maybe with the idea that an organization advocates for these people?
  - istjohn 5y ago
    It's silly for people who've decided they don't want to be parents to then style themselves as marginalized and build an identity around opposition to their imagined persecution. There's nothing wrong with not reproducing, but really you have more in common with parents of one child than they have in common with parents of six children. I don't have any pets. Do I need a special interest group?
    - wizzwizz4 5y ago
      > Do I need a special interest group? It depends on the culture that surrounds you.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    All of the above. I’m from a Muslim country—in Islam, getting married and having children (if you’re able) is a moral duty. I was never a practicing Muslim, but I believe that this view is basically correct. Society as a whole needs to be engaged in the project of raising the next generation, and that breaks down if having children is treated as an individual choice. Raising kids in America—especially in urban areas among more educated people—is just such a sad, atomized experience. Not only compared to back home in Bangladesh, but even my own upbringing in America. America has been good to my family but I’m genuinely worried whether we came here in some sort of terminal stage of American society. I’m terrified my own kids are going to adopt these ideas. What would have been the point of leaving all our friends and family behind to immigrate here if our family just dies out on this stupid continent?
    - arrow7000 5y ago
      So because you think it's a moral duty other people shouldn't get access to birth control?
- VictorPath 5y ago
  > Luckily this is a self-correcting problem Being as people have been around for at least 500 centuries, and birthrate are leveling off, if this were going to "self-correct", it would have already.