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[Disclaimer: Russian] According to my estimations, probably at least 95% of people who are "against the war" do not go out to participate in protests. My estima

[Disclaimer: Russian] According to my estimations, probably at least 95% of people who are "against the war" do not go out to participate in protests. My estimations are based on talking to my colleagues (large IT company). Yes, starting from now, protesting becomes more risky (you may go to jail for years if you get caught second time). But just a week ago, it was mostly harmless (yes, some people get arrested for few days, but will anyone say it's comparable to what's going on in Ukraine?). And from these 5% who go out now many (including myself) were not protesting in 2014. So to be honest I cannot see how we are not responsible. [Edit] 95% is a VERY conservative estimation. [Edit2] And of course people from other countries are also responsible for crimes which their governments are or were doing (many of these crimes resulted in many more deaths than this conflict yet - hopefully it will remain so). So don't feel good about yourself guys.

artyomxyz 5y ago
In some way you’re right. But it’s important to note that we haven’t chosen this government, we haven’t chosen this country we live in. I personally lost any hope to change it one year earlier after participating in pro-Navalny protests. Now, I just don’t want to have anything in common with this government. I’m choosing another one. And I’m not going to pay taxes to Russian government anymore
- antattack 5y ago
  Don't beat yourself over it. Now that you're out of the country, you can donate time and/or money to help fight for tolerance and against Putin regime.
  - ativzzz 5y ago
    For the vast majority of normal people, just leaving the country without plans of coming back is the best they can do.
  - vixen99 5y ago
    That would be a tough fight according to this poll reported on the 23rd February. Probably a disturbing result for those who think the Russians are not broadly in line with the government. However at that time only 13% thought it likely for the Kremlin to initiate military action towards Ukraine. https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2022/02/europe/russia-ukraine-crisis-poll-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2022/02/europe/russia-uk...
- vertis 5y ago
  This is wisdom. There are so many great countries out there (seen through the eyes of a digital nomad). Countries that you can build in, and succeed in. I can recommend Estonia, though it might feel too close with the current war. Also I love all the Nordic countries (haven't had the opportunity to visit Finland yet). If you speak English and you're in IT then Australia is also a very good option -- you'll need to be sponsored, but IT doesn't have too many troubles. Great weather and AU political problems are tiny in comparison (though every country has it's challenges).
- nathanlied 5y ago
  I've been finding it very easy to empathise with Russians in this. After what we've seen happening in so-called "enlightened" Western democracies, with all our press freedoms, and yet we still have homeopathy advocates, far-right (and left!) conspiracies, and all kinds of gnashing of teeth over "fake news". How can I not look at Russian society, with a far more controlled environment, and think "how can Russians not know about it? How are they so easily deceived?", well, how are -we-, in the West, so easily deceived? It cuts both ways - but at least Russians have more of an excuse. I am hoping you and your people find kindness wherever you decide to flee to. It is already difficult enough to uproot yourself (and your family), with an uncertain future, leaving friends and memories of better days behind. We need to advocate for Ukrainian refugees - those who are fleeing Putin's war of aggression - but we cannot forget that, while Ukrainians are the worse off in this conflict, many Russians will also be victims. Many Russians will not be able to return home. And many Russians may see friends and family prosecuted for opposing Putin's war.
  - TravelPiglet 5y ago
    I’ve yet to see any homeopathy advocates and conspiracy theorists attacking other countries. Stop pretending it’s the same thing.
    - freedomben 5y ago
      This black & white view of good and evil is starting to get really tiresome. Is it the effect of modern movies/tv shows that causes this belief? In movies there's usually a clear/perfect/innocent "good" guy and a bad guy, but real life is rarely so cut and dry. It is perfectly possible for there to be two different parties, each of which (to different degrees of course) make bad decisions that hurt innocent people. Being honest about this and calling it out is not the same thing as equating what the "bad guy" and the "good guy" do.
      - gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
- moonchrome 5y ago
  >But it’s important to note that we haven’t chosen this government, we haven’t chosen this country we live in. From my perspective this is the only meaningful change you can make. If my government ever starts getting in my way too much I'll find another one. Voting with my feet literally. We have this luxury as in-demand professionals. Kind of hard for me to empathize with Russian developers when they had decades to make this move, it's not like everything changed a few weeks ago.
  - novosel 5y ago
    And, where will You find it? (The new government I mean) Things are, The Reality is, much more complicated.
    - baq 5y ago
      Corrupt west, of course. At least you can say what you think. Most of the time.
      - freedomben 5y ago
        Just not in "private" spaces, like 99% of the internet, if you're open minded to ideas like the Lab Leak Theory (TM) back when that was verboten.
      - tw20212021 5y ago
        Really? Just go to the east then
    - freedomben 5y ago
      Seconded. I'm in the US but I've looked into emigrating to quite a few different countries (including some with reputations for being more friendly to immigration such as Australia), and it's a lot harder than it sounds. I had a work visa in Canada for several months but then covid hit and they closed the border. Israel seemed like the easiest process I found, but only if you are Jewish (although temporary work permits are liberal there). The US also complicates things by being the only (?) nation on earth that still taxes it's citizens even if they didn't step foot in the country the whole year. This forces you to either renounce your citizenship entirely (which is extremely risky to do until you have permanent citizenship elsewhere, which can take many years), or be exploited by the US gov. What countries are the best/easiest for immigration?
- freedomben 5y ago
  For what it's worth, if anything, I think you're a hero and I deeply appreciate your efforts. You're doing more than the vast majority of people (in any country) would do. It's just far more easy to change your principles than to live them and most people choose the path of least resistance.
- kikimora 5y ago
  This is exactly what Russian government wants. It does not need this much Russians. It will be happy to have maybe 500 000 of them, just enough to pump oil and gas.
danielodievich 5y ago
I've been in touch with my family in and around Moscow. Older generation is militantly pro-Putin, as a direct result of listening to the what the TV spews. My generation is ignoring it all and is keeping their heads down because it is too dangerous to express anything. My uncle who had a green card and had an opportunity to settle here in USA couple of decades ago but chose not to is being very philosophical, and says he's at least happy to have pre-paid for Egypt resort in the fall before the money became completely inflated away. I am unconvinced that he's going to be able to enjoy it and wish he has made a different choice on the green card.
- ipv6ipv4 5y ago
  Can you be more precise with which generations you are referring to? Maybe age ranges?
  - 5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
    I am not from Russia, but have a lot of friends and relatives there. In my circles everyone below 40 years of age is strongly anti-regime. Especially below 30. Many of them have left the country (everyone who could basically, and one has bought the ticket and is waiting to leave soon). Above that age group it's hit or miss, and depends whether or not the person in question watches television and bothers to read one of the few remaining independent news outlets. Pretty much everybody above 60 strongly believes in whatever bullshit Putin is saying this week. Although there is one exception that I know of.
    - pps 5y ago
      At the same time... https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t6b827/russian_influencers_having_the_exact_same_speech/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t6b827/russian_inf...
- tartoran 5y ago
  That polarising effect on older generations versus younger ones is something that has affected a large part of the world and I’d be curios to know whether it originated by one source or it simply emerged as a trend. First time I heard about troll farms was something brewed in Russia but it certainly spread around by then
ncpa-cpl 5y ago
> Yes, starting from now, protesting becomes more risky (you may go to jail for years if you get caught second time). But just a week ago, it was mostly harmless (yes, some people get arrested for few days... Even one arrest record is enough to be disqualified for or complicate any visa or moving abroad plan :(
- cutemonster 5y ago
  Is it the other countries who don't like arrest records, or can Putin's regime prevent people with these records, from getting a visa elsewhere?
  - ncpa-cpl 5y ago
    It is common for visa applications to have a question like "Have you ever been arrested or convicted for any offence or crime, even if the arrest did not result in a conviction". And residency applications usually ask for a police record.
    - cutemonster 5y ago
      Oops. Having been arrested in Russia maybe should count in one's favor instead But I guess that will never happen :-(
enaaem 5y ago
You can read the book: Blueprint for Revolution: How to Use Rice Pudding, Lego Men, and Other Nonviolent Techniques to Galvanize Communities, Overthrow Dictators, or Simply Change the World It proposes many interesting strategies and ideas on how to protest in dictatorships. Be subtle, use humor and focus your message on the most common people. Don't call for democracy, free speech or anything like that. You will be branded as foreign forces. Find something every Russian believes in like peace or the brotherly bonds between Russiand and Ukrainians. Pick small battles to win first.
- throwoutway 5y ago
  Perhaps rather than protesting, silently walking around holding signs that use of sarcasm? (To circumvent the anti-speech laws) “Putin is king! Glory to USSR!” “Synonyms for conflict may contain the words: war, special operation” “Is the special operation over yet? My mother wants to see my brother” “What’s next Vladimir?” Subtle civil disobedience that the cops will overlook until it’s too late (I’m making a lot of assumptions here) Make it so subtle that it feels like it’s a waste of time to arrest. Until everyone is doing it
  - tryauuum 5y ago
    people were arrested even for protesting with empty sheets of paper
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    None of those quotes are very subtle.
  - enaaem 5y ago
    Turning "special operations" into a meme is a great idea. Use it jokingly in every day life. If everyone start using it you have won your first battle.
    - MonkeyClub 5y ago
      So, Putin won?
dj_gitmo 5y ago
American here, and I am involved with the US anti-war movement. I really wish we could get 5% involved with the movement, but people don't get interested unless it starts affecting them or their family. To this day, the most active members of the US anti-war movement are baby boomers because they were being drafted to fight in Vietnam. The US ended the draft after Vietnam. The sanctions in Russia could build resistance to the war in Russia, but they could also backfire if the Western governments do not set reasonable criteria for removing the sanctions. So far they have not indicated how to end sanctions. If Western governments will only remove sanctions if Putin is thrown out, than I fear that there is little chance the war will end soon. The Syrian sanctions will never end without regime change so the sanctions are purely punitive.
- freedomben 5y ago
  Agree completely. May I ask, how big is your anti-war tent? For example, in my experience the most anti-war people are anarchists (sometimes disambiguated to anarcho-socialists) and anarcho-capitalists. However only a small percentage of each group is willing to join with the other for an issue. Are you? Are you part of an organization like this?
  - dj_gitmo 5y ago
    > May I ask, how big is your anti-war tent? For example, in my experience the most anti-war people are anarchists (sometimes disambiguated to anarcho-socialists) and anarcho-capitalists. I came in through left-wing organizing and I've worked with a few groups. Some are officially non-ideological except for being anti-war (but if I had to place them I'd say liberal-left) like Peace Action https://www.peaceaction.org/ https://www.peaceaction.org/. They have a lot of members form the Vietnam era Peace movement. Other visible contributors to the anti-war movement are socialist orgs like DSA and ANSWER Coalition. DSA has a bigger base, but ANSWER really tends to be ahead on organizing street events. Then there are various solidarity groups for countries like El Salvador or Palestine. The Latin American solidarity groups from the Dirty Wars of the 1980s still exist. These left leaning groups would never work with right-wing groups, and for what it's worth you almost never see right-wing groups try to seriously organize anti-war, or at least they way they organize/lobby is very different.
rectang 5y ago
> According to my estimations, probably at least 95% of people who are "against the war" do not go out to participate in protests. "Courage" really understates the sacrifice that Russian protestors are making. I've participated in a fair number of demonstrations for various causes over the years (in the US), but none of them involved any personal risk or enduring consequences. Attending a single anti-war demonstration in Russia is a much more momentous act. It's uncomfortable sitting in judgment of even pro-Putin Russians, because as you say we in other countries have also been responsible for grievous harms. But like today's Germans, we can't let ourselves be paralyzed by past history when deciding whether we can legitimately do something about the horror unfolding before us.
foogazi 5y ago
> So to be honest I cannot see how we are not responsible. I cannot se how you are responsible
kikimora 5y ago
There is going to be big protest rally tomorrow and I’ll be there. My friends in police told me they are on full alert, even Putin’s guards (ФСО) will be on streets tomorrow. I don’t care. Many Russians are evil and full of Putin’s propaganda shit. I’ll go to streets tomorrow to meet other Russians who are better than that. I hope to see many of them.
cmurf 5y ago
I think Russians are responsible, but I do not think they are 100% responsible. But whatever the responsibility is, the punishment will be collective and disproportionate. Some of that will be fair, a lot of it will not be. The young kids today, and not yet born, who had no ability to become part of a rebellion, will be punished. The old folks today, the ones who have died since Putin was in power, they're not going to get any extra punishment. They can be asked no questions, they can provide no answers. If it is true that a Russian should have protested and gone to prison, in order to avoid Putin starting this war or the next war - isn't it also true every human is somehow fractionally responsible for not having tried to assassinate him? Like, how could that even work? To what degree are nationals responsible for the actions of their leaders? And when they fail to act, how should they be punished for it? I'm proposing we still have a significant flaw with our international agreements and institutions intending to preserve international peace. Because there's a lot of mistakes that have been made since WW2. The recent events in Ukraine tell me that despite being flawed, we need these institutions more than ever or we're absolutely going to blow up the world again. And one of those flaws, in my opinion, is the permanent security council veto power. It is not much security or a counseling, when permanent members can violate the charter and veto resolutions trying to hold them accountable. The U.S. has done this, and so has Russia. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that, and the various violations aren't even comparable. We should hold Russia accountable, but we cannot forget the Treaty of Versailles when figuring out how culpable the Russian people are. What are the proper incentives for any other country in the same situation? Is there something that would be more useful to preserving international peace than punishing Russia? Hell, maybe a suitable punishment would be making Russia into a democracy, it could be worse. (This is supposed to be funny, but I know in advance it's kindof a bad joke.)
- kikimora 5y ago
  What happened in Putin’s Russia had happened in many other counties. What makes it special is large nuclear arsenal that makes Putin immune to an intervention. I won’t go into how much Russians are responsible if at all as this is just too controversial. But I do believe that a long term solution is international pressure to establish functional political institutes that are more powerful than any single politician working inside them. I don’t care if it is called a democracy or something else. I care about the system which is above any single participant and does not break when someone tries to take full control over it.
alm1 5y ago
how's this rhetoric different that Russia's "there some bad actors in Ukraine, so let's wreck the whole country"? Some people didn't vote for Putin, some even went to protest and been to jail and all got sanctions. Saying it's "deserved" seems rather insensitive. It escapes me how the regular Russian people are often considered the only group that can quickly change the situation today. Yet all they get in western media is hate and shame.
lazide 5y ago
It’s the whole ‘the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men do nothing’, combined with the very real reality that being the first (or part of it when it isn’t enough) to do something usually results in predictable catastrophic terrible consequences for whoever tries to do something. And that successful evil uses that to ‘boil the frog’ and constantly shift the normal bit by bit in the direction they want, never doing it enough they get a critical mass of resistance, and slowly pruning out all the good people (with terrible consequences for those folks), and then being able to accelerate as they go due to lower and lower portions of folks willing and able to speak out. It’s terrifying to watch, even more terrifying to know what it can mean unfortunately. Because we recognize ‘evil’ as being evil and bad because of the horrible and wide reaching consequences of it for everyone in the longer term. Hopefully Putin made too big a step here (overconfidence maybe, or his hand was forced by something else), we all have recent even painful experience to react strongly enough, and the backlash will be sufficient to actually result in critical change and not a ratcheting up of the ‘new normal’.

artyomxyz 5y ago

In some way you’re right. But it’s important to note that we haven’t chosen this government, we haven’t chosen this country we live in. I personally lost any hope to change it one year earlier after participating in pro-Navalny protests. Now, I just don’t want to have anything in common with this government. I’m choosing another one. And I’m not going to pay taxes to Russian government anymore

antattack 5y ago
Don't beat yourself over it. Now that you're out of the country, you can donate time and/or money to help fight for tolerance and against Putin regime.
- ativzzz 5y ago
  For the vast majority of normal people, just leaving the country without plans of coming back is the best they can do.
- vixen99 5y ago
  That would be a tough fight according to this poll reported on the 23rd February. Probably a disturbing result for those who think the Russians are not broadly in line with the government. However at that time only 13% thought it likely for the Kremlin to initiate military action towards Ukraine. https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2022/02/europe/russia-ukraine-crisis-poll-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2022/02/europe/russia-uk...
vertis 5y ago
This is wisdom. There are so many great countries out there (seen through the eyes of a digital nomad). Countries that you can build in, and succeed in. I can recommend Estonia, though it might feel too close with the current war. Also I love all the Nordic countries (haven't had the opportunity to visit Finland yet). If you speak English and you're in IT then Australia is also a very good option -- you'll need to be sponsored, but IT doesn't have too many troubles. Great weather and AU political problems are tiny in comparison (though every country has it's challenges).
nathanlied 5y ago
I've been finding it very easy to empathise with Russians in this. After what we've seen happening in so-called "enlightened" Western democracies, with all our press freedoms, and yet we still have homeopathy advocates, far-right (and left!) conspiracies, and all kinds of gnashing of teeth over "fake news". How can I not look at Russian society, with a far more controlled environment, and think "how can Russians not know about it? How are they so easily deceived?", well, how are -we-, in the West, so easily deceived? It cuts both ways - but at least Russians have more of an excuse. I am hoping you and your people find kindness wherever you decide to flee to. It is already difficult enough to uproot yourself (and your family), with an uncertain future, leaving friends and memories of better days behind. We need to advocate for Ukrainian refugees - those who are fleeing Putin's war of aggression - but we cannot forget that, while Ukrainians are the worse off in this conflict, many Russians will also be victims. Many Russians will not be able to return home. And many Russians may see friends and family prosecuted for opposing Putin's war.
- TravelPiglet 5y ago
  I’ve yet to see any homeopathy advocates and conspiracy theorists attacking other countries. Stop pretending it’s the same thing.
  - freedomben 5y ago
    This black & white view of good and evil is starting to get really tiresome. Is it the effect of modern movies/tv shows that causes this belief? In movies there's usually a clear/perfect/innocent "good" guy and a bad guy, but real life is rarely so cut and dry. It is perfectly possible for there to be two different parties, each of which (to different degrees of course) make bad decisions that hurt innocent people. Being honest about this and calling it out is not the same thing as equating what the "bad guy" and the "good guy" do.
    - gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
moonchrome 5y ago
>But it’s important to note that we haven’t chosen this government, we haven’t chosen this country we live in. From my perspective this is the only meaningful change you can make. If my government ever starts getting in my way too much I'll find another one. Voting with my feet literally. We have this luxury as in-demand professionals. Kind of hard for me to empathize with Russian developers when they had decades to make this move, it's not like everything changed a few weeks ago.
- novosel 5y ago
  And, where will You find it? (The new government I mean) Things are, The Reality is, much more complicated.
  - baq 5y ago
    Corrupt west, of course. At least you can say what you think. Most of the time.
    - freedomben 5y ago
      Just not in "private" spaces, like 99% of the internet, if you're open minded to ideas like the Lab Leak Theory (TM) back when that was verboten.
    - tw20212021 5y ago
      Really? Just go to the east then
  - freedomben 5y ago
    Seconded. I'm in the US but I've looked into emigrating to quite a few different countries (including some with reputations for being more friendly to immigration such as Australia), and it's a lot harder than it sounds. I had a work visa in Canada for several months but then covid hit and they closed the border. Israel seemed like the easiest process I found, but only if you are Jewish (although temporary work permits are liberal there). The US also complicates things by being the only (?) nation on earth that still taxes it's citizens even if they didn't step foot in the country the whole year. This forces you to either renounce your citizenship entirely (which is extremely risky to do until you have permanent citizenship elsewhere, which can take many years), or be exploited by the US gov. What countries are the best/easiest for immigration?
freedomben 5y ago
For what it's worth, if anything, I think you're a hero and I deeply appreciate your efforts. You're doing more than the vast majority of people (in any country) would do. It's just far more easy to change your principles than to live them and most people choose the path of least resistance.
kikimora 5y ago
This is exactly what Russian government wants. It does not need this much Russians. It will be happy to have maybe 500 000 of them, just enough to pump oil and gas.

danielodievich 5y ago

I've been in touch with my family in and around Moscow. Older generation is militantly pro-Putin, as a direct result of listening to the what the TV spews. My generation is ignoring it all and is keeping their heads down because it is too dangerous to express anything. My uncle who had a green card and had an opportunity to settle here in USA couple of decades ago but chose not to is being very philosophical, and says he's at least happy to have pre-paid for Egypt resort in the fall before the money became completely inflated away. I am unconvinced that he's going to be able to enjoy it and wish he has made a different choice on the green card.

ipv6ipv4 5y ago
Can you be more precise with which generations you are referring to? Maybe age ranges?
- 5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
  I am not from Russia, but have a lot of friends and relatives there. In my circles everyone below 40 years of age is strongly anti-regime. Especially below 30. Many of them have left the country (everyone who could basically, and one has bought the ticket and is waiting to leave soon). Above that age group it's hit or miss, and depends whether or not the person in question watches television and bothers to read one of the few remaining independent news outlets. Pretty much everybody above 60 strongly believes in whatever bullshit Putin is saying this week. Although there is one exception that I know of.
  - pps 5y ago
    At the same time... https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t6b827/russian_influencers_having_the_exact_same_speech/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t6b827/russian_inf...
tartoran 5y ago
That polarising effect on older generations versus younger ones is something that has affected a large part of the world and I’d be curios to know whether it originated by one source or it simply emerged as a trend. First time I heard about troll farms was something brewed in Russia but it certainly spread around by then

ncpa-cpl 5y ago

> Yes, starting from now, protesting becomes more risky (you may go to jail for years if you get caught second time). But just a week ago, it was mostly harmless (yes, some people get arrested for few days... Even one arrest record is enough to be disqualified for or complicate any visa or moving abroad plan :(

cutemonster 5y ago
Is it the other countries who don't like arrest records, or can Putin's regime prevent people with these records, from getting a visa elsewhere?
- ncpa-cpl 5y ago
  It is common for visa applications to have a question like "Have you ever been arrested or convicted for any offence or crime, even if the arrest did not result in a conviction". And residency applications usually ask for a police record.
  - cutemonster 5y ago
    Oops. Having been arrested in Russia maybe should count in one's favor instead But I guess that will never happen :-(

enaaem 5y ago

You can read the book: Blueprint for Revolution: How to Use Rice Pudding, Lego Men, and Other Nonviolent Techniques to Galvanize Communities, Overthrow Dictators, or Simply Change the World It proposes many interesting strategies and ideas on how to protest in dictatorships. Be subtle, use humor and focus your message on the most common people. Don't call for democracy, free speech or anything like that. You will be branded as foreign forces. Find something every Russian believes in like peace or the brotherly bonds between Russiand and Ukrainians. Pick small battles to win first.

throwoutway 5y ago
Perhaps rather than protesting, silently walking around holding signs that use of sarcasm? (To circumvent the anti-speech laws) “Putin is king! Glory to USSR!” “Synonyms for conflict may contain the words: war, special operation” “Is the special operation over yet? My mother wants to see my brother” “What’s next Vladimir?” Subtle civil disobedience that the cops will overlook until it’s too late (I’m making a lot of assumptions here) Make it so subtle that it feels like it’s a waste of time to arrest. Until everyone is doing it
- tryauuum 5y ago
  people were arrested even for protesting with empty sheets of paper
- whatshisface 5y ago
  None of those quotes are very subtle.
- enaaem 5y ago
  Turning "special operations" into a meme is a great idea. Use it jokingly in every day life. If everyone start using it you have won your first battle.
  - MonkeyClub 5y ago
    So, Putin won?

dj_gitmo 5y ago

American here, and I am involved with the US anti-war movement. I really wish we could get 5% involved with the movement, but people don't get interested unless it starts affecting them or their family. To this day, the most active members of the US anti-war movement are baby boomers because they were being drafted to fight in Vietnam. The US ended the draft after Vietnam. The sanctions in Russia could build resistance to the war in Russia, but they could also backfire if the Western governments do not set reasonable criteria for removing the sanctions. So far they have not indicated how to end sanctions. If Western governments will only remove sanctions if Putin is thrown out, than I fear that there is little chance the war will end soon. The Syrian sanctions will never end without regime change so the sanctions are purely punitive.

freedomben 5y ago
Agree completely. May I ask, how big is your anti-war tent? For example, in my experience the most anti-war people are anarchists (sometimes disambiguated to anarcho-socialists) and anarcho-capitalists. However only a small percentage of each group is willing to join with the other for an issue. Are you? Are you part of an organization like this?
- dj_gitmo 5y ago
  > May I ask, how big is your anti-war tent? For example, in my experience the most anti-war people are anarchists (sometimes disambiguated to anarcho-socialists) and anarcho-capitalists. I came in through left-wing organizing and I've worked with a few groups. Some are officially non-ideological except for being anti-war (but if I had to place them I'd say liberal-left) like Peace Action https://www.peaceaction.org/ https://www.peaceaction.org/. They have a lot of members form the Vietnam era Peace movement. Other visible contributors to the anti-war movement are socialist orgs like DSA and ANSWER Coalition. DSA has a bigger base, but ANSWER really tends to be ahead on organizing street events. Then there are various solidarity groups for countries like El Salvador or Palestine. The Latin American solidarity groups from the Dirty Wars of the 1980s still exist. These left leaning groups would never work with right-wing groups, and for what it's worth you almost never see right-wing groups try to seriously organize anti-war, or at least they way they organize/lobby is very different.

rectang 5y ago

> According to my estimations, probably at least 95% of people who are "against the war" do not go out to participate in protests. "Courage" really understates the sacrifice that Russian protestors are making. I've participated in a fair number of demonstrations for various causes over the years (in the US), but none of them involved any personal risk or enduring consequences. Attending a single anti-war demonstration in Russia is a much more momentous act. It's uncomfortable sitting in judgment of even pro-Putin Russians, because as you say we in other countries have also been responsible for grievous harms. But like today's Germans, we can't let ourselves be paralyzed by past history when deciding whether we can legitimately do something about the horror unfolding before us.

foogazi 5y ago

> So to be honest I cannot see how we are not responsible. I cannot se how you are responsible

kikimora 5y ago

There is going to be big protest rally tomorrow and I’ll be there. My friends in police told me they are on full alert, even Putin’s guards (ФСО) will be on streets tomorrow. I don’t care. Many Russians are evil and full of Putin’s propaganda shit. I’ll go to streets tomorrow to meet other Russians who are better than that. I hope to see many of them.

cmurf 5y ago

I think Russians are responsible, but I do not think they are 100% responsible. But whatever the responsibility is, the punishment will be collective and disproportionate. Some of that will be fair, a lot of it will not be. The young kids today, and not yet born, who had no ability to become part of a rebellion, will be punished. The old folks today, the ones who have died since Putin was in power, they're not going to get any extra punishment. They can be asked no questions, they can provide no answers. If it is true that a Russian should have protested and gone to prison, in order to avoid Putin starting this war or the next war - isn't it also true every human is somehow fractionally responsible for not having tried to assassinate him? Like, how could that even work? To what degree are nationals responsible for the actions of their leaders? And when they fail to act, how should they be punished for it? I'm proposing we still have a significant flaw with our international agreements and institutions intending to preserve international peace. Because there's a lot of mistakes that have been made since WW2. The recent events in Ukraine tell me that despite being flawed, we need these institutions more than ever or we're absolutely going to blow up the world again. And one of those flaws, in my opinion, is the permanent security council veto power. It is not much security or a counseling, when permanent members can violate the charter and veto resolutions trying to hold them accountable. The U.S. has done this, and so has Russia. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that, and the various violations aren't even comparable. We should hold Russia accountable, but we cannot forget the Treaty of Versailles when figuring out how culpable the Russian people are. What are the proper incentives for any other country in the same situation? Is there something that would be more useful to preserving international peace than punishing Russia? Hell, maybe a suitable punishment would be making Russia into a democracy, it could be worse. (This is supposed to be funny, but I know in advance it's kindof a bad joke.)

kikimora 5y ago
What happened in Putin’s Russia had happened in many other counties. What makes it special is large nuclear arsenal that makes Putin immune to an intervention. I won’t go into how much Russians are responsible if at all as this is just too controversial. But I do believe that a long term solution is international pressure to establish functional political institutes that are more powerful than any single politician working inside them. I don’t care if it is called a democracy or something else. I care about the system which is above any single participant and does not break when someone tries to take full control over it.

alm1 5y ago

how's this rhetoric different that Russia's "there some bad actors in Ukraine, so let's wreck the whole country"? Some people didn't vote for Putin, some even went to protest and been to jail and all got sanctions. Saying it's "deserved" seems rather insensitive. It escapes me how the regular Russian people are often considered the only group that can quickly change the situation today. Yet all they get in western media is hate and shame.

lazide 5y ago

It’s the whole ‘the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men do nothing’, combined with the very real reality that being the first (or part of it when it isn’t enough) to do something usually results in predictable catastrophic terrible consequences for whoever tries to do something. And that successful evil uses that to ‘boil the frog’ and constantly shift the normal bit by bit in the direction they want, never doing it enough they get a critical mass of resistance, and slowly pruning out all the good people (with terrible consequences for those folks), and then being able to accelerate as they go due to lower and lower portions of folks willing and able to speak out. It’s terrifying to watch, even more terrifying to know what it can mean unfortunately. Because we recognize ‘evil’ as being evil and bad because of the horrible and wide reaching consequences of it for everyone in the longer term. Hopefully Putin made too big a step here (overconfidence maybe, or his hand was forced by something else), we all have recent even painful experience to react strongly enough, and the backlash will be sufficient to actually result in critical change and not a ratcheting up of the ‘new normal’.