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I see both sides to this. Yes, Russians should protest against the horrible actions of their government. On the other hand, if you’re an average Russian with f

by axg11 5y ago

I see both sides to this. Yes, Russians should protest against the horrible actions of their government. On the other hand, if you’re an average Russian with few/no international ties, would you really risk protesting against a government with a demonstrated track record of murdering dissidents and imprisoning protestors? NATO/the West is choosing to worsen the lives of 144 million Russian citizens due to the actions of ~several hundred people. I don’t disagree with the sanctions but we also shouldn’t pretend that it is a just or fair course of action. Sanctions are the best tool that we have, out of a selection of poor tools.

tyrfing 5y ago
Putin has popular support, and there's no evidence that Russians are against the war. This sort of argument is about as intellectually dishonest as saying Trump didn't represent the US. Factually, he did. A small minority fleeing the country isn't evidence that everyone opposes the country's leadership, and most of the anecdotes from Russians are about avoiding personal involvement - the fear is of being drafted into the war. edit: I know this is an unpopular point, but there is just zero basis for saying that Putin isn't supported by his country. He absolutely is, which makes the situation much more complicated.
- optimalonpaper 5y ago
  This might be true (as horrible as it sounds - and many people in Ukraine think exactly this), but I still hope that a vocal minority acting together could start something new - and then we could see another, better Russia (Russia that returns Crimea, Donbass, and don't start new wars).
adventured 5y ago
> NATO/the West is choosing to worsen the lives of 144 million Russian citizens due to the actions of ~several hundred people. That's the single biggest falsehood of this whole thing propaganda wise: that the Russian people aren't responsible for what's going on. The Russian people are responsbile for their culture, which keeps producing and promoting authoritarianism, decade after decade, generation after generation, century after century. Oh those poor Russian people, applauding Putin when times were good, cheering the increase in Russian might, cheering the annexation of Crimea, rah rah rah. Oh no, Putin has gone into Ukraine, who could have seen it coming!?! It's all bullshit, they cheered him on. Putin's popularity went way up with the annexation of Crimea, so he's doing it again on a greater level, he's repeating what worked last time with the Russian people - they love conquest and the return of glory for the Russian empire. These are important beliefs of the Russian culture and Putin is very aware of that. Putin fed them endless images of strength, all those ridiculous photos of him pretending to be strong doing a thing, it was all propaganda for his people (now ask yourself why it worked, why that propaganda; because Putin understands very well the Russian culture and what to feed it). They are responsible.
- ugjka 5y ago
  Would you say in the same vein that North Koreans are responsible for the dictatorship they are living in?
  - optimalonpaper 5y ago
    To the same degree that russians are responsible for the political regime they live under -- it's the result of their inactivity and tolerance of the horrific things that are happening right now, no? Of course if you're in North Korea, it's much much harder (if possible at all) to do anything. But unless russians wake up soon, they're heading in the same direction as North Korea for sure. So they should act before they become North Korea, act whilst they can
- tsol 5y ago
  And western people are responsible for a culture that colonizes half the world. Why do you always escape punishment?
  - dzikimarian 5y ago
    First of all - most of the countries recognized their mistakes and got rid of governments pushing for such things. Secondly - many ghosts of the past are still torment western countries (e.g. last year BLM protests), and in general they are at least recognized as a problem, by general population, not that stubbornly deflected and "whatabouted" as we can observe now in Russia. BTW I'm not westerner. I'm living far closer to the Russia, than I would prefer to - because honestly whole world moved ahead, and in general got better (admittedly very inconsistently), and Russia is well... Russia - same for as long as I know.
    - tsol 5y ago
      >First of all - most of the countries recognized their mistakes and got rid of governments pushing for such things. After benefiting from stealing their resources, eventually colonization ended in no small part due to huge amounts of resistance from the colonies(ex Ghandi). I don't think that's exactly deserving of a humanitarian prize. Not only are there are reparations for those who were used, there were even recent military incursions in the Middle East >Secondly - many ghosts of the past are still torment western countries (e.g. last year BLM protests), and in general they are at least recognized as a problem, by general population, not that stubbornly deflected and "whatabouted" as we can observe now in Russia. Cold comfort. That isn't fixing the problem that's just saying "yeah well we feel bad and have problems due to the abuse we inflicted on others". No surprise, but that doesn't help any of the populations that were set back and marginalized by colonization
JamesBarney 5y ago
All the polls in Russia show more than half the population supports the special military operations in Russia. So it's way more than a few hundred. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of soldiers who are literally invading Ukraine right now.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > All the polls in Russia show more than half the population supports the special military operations in Russia. When dissent, both personal and published, is criminalized, that less than half of people will tell a stranger promising anonymity and purporting to represent a media organization that they dissent doesn't mean anything like that less than half of people actually dissent. Opinion polling can be problematic in a liberal democracy with a strong tradition of freedom of political opinion and expression, but in regimes that aren't it is beyond problematic.
- ridiculous_leke 5y ago
  Not sure how legit the polls are. However, most of the people will support security and safety over freedom. Supporting war seems to be the only safe of living under Putin's regime.
opportune 5y ago
Yeah, it’s unreasonable to expect everybody in a corrupt regime to sacrifice their life to stop it. At least Russia is not stopping them from leaving. These Russians leaving their country is still a “vote with your feet” type of play. It hurts the regime of Russia to have professionals leave, especially since the people who leave are more likely to be more skilled. It’s better than doing nothing at all.
optimalonpaper 5y ago
> if you’re an average Russian with few/no international ties, would you really risk protesting against a government with a demonstrated track record of murdering dissidents and imprisoning protestors? I think one has to decide what's important for them -- if I think that my participation in collective action (protest) could somehow prevent or stop killing of other people, then I think I would try at least (and if I knew there were other people who I can rely on, who share the same feelings that I have). In this case, if nothing changes, at least I know I did all I could, but if it works (in best case scenario), then the war is over. Worth risking right? This is how the Revolution of Dignity happened in Ukraine: you just knew you had to act -- and act as a group not as an individual -- when the president you elected have failed your nation (and before running away he also proposed fines and imprisonment for those who took part in protests, so there were risks obviously). > I don’t disagree with the sanctions but we also shouldn’t pretend that it is a just or fair course of action. Sanctions are the best tool that we have, out of a selection of poor tools. Completely agree

by axg11 5y ago

tyrfing 5y ago

Putin has popular support, and there's no evidence that Russians are against the war. This sort of argument is about as intellectually dishonest as saying Trump didn't represent the US. Factually, he did. A small minority fleeing the country isn't evidence that everyone opposes the country's leadership, and most of the anecdotes from Russians are about avoiding personal involvement - the fear is of being drafted into the war. edit: I know this is an unpopular point, but there is just zero basis for saying that Putin isn't supported by his country. He absolutely is, which makes the situation much more complicated.

optimalonpaper 5y ago
This might be true (as horrible as it sounds - and many people in Ukraine think exactly this), but I still hope that a vocal minority acting together could start something new - and then we could see another, better Russia (Russia that returns Crimea, Donbass, and don't start new wars).

adventured 5y ago

> NATO/the West is choosing to worsen the lives of 144 million Russian citizens due to the actions of ~several hundred people. That's the single biggest falsehood of this whole thing propaganda wise: that the Russian people aren't responsible for what's going on. The Russian people are responsbile for their culture, which keeps producing and promoting authoritarianism, decade after decade, generation after generation, century after century. Oh those poor Russian people, applauding Putin when times were good, cheering the increase in Russian might, cheering the annexation of Crimea, rah rah rah. Oh no, Putin has gone into Ukraine, who could have seen it coming!?! It's all bullshit, they cheered him on. Putin's popularity went way up with the annexation of Crimea, so he's doing it again on a greater level, he's repeating what worked last time with the Russian people - they love conquest and the return of glory for the Russian empire. These are important beliefs of the Russian culture and Putin is very aware of that. Putin fed them endless images of strength, all those ridiculous photos of him pretending to be strong doing a thing, it was all propaganda for his people (now ask yourself why it worked, why that propaganda; because Putin understands very well the Russian culture and what to feed it). They are responsible.

ugjka 5y ago
Would you say in the same vein that North Koreans are responsible for the dictatorship they are living in?
- optimalonpaper 5y ago
  To the same degree that russians are responsible for the political regime they live under -- it's the result of their inactivity and tolerance of the horrific things that are happening right now, no? Of course if you're in North Korea, it's much much harder (if possible at all) to do anything. But unless russians wake up soon, they're heading in the same direction as North Korea for sure. So they should act before they become North Korea, act whilst they can
tsol 5y ago
And western people are responsible for a culture that colonizes half the world. Why do you always escape punishment?
- dzikimarian 5y ago
  First of all - most of the countries recognized their mistakes and got rid of governments pushing for such things. Secondly - many ghosts of the past are still torment western countries (e.g. last year BLM protests), and in general they are at least recognized as a problem, by general population, not that stubbornly deflected and "whatabouted" as we can observe now in Russia. BTW I'm not westerner. I'm living far closer to the Russia, than I would prefer to - because honestly whole world moved ahead, and in general got better (admittedly very inconsistently), and Russia is well... Russia - same for as long as I know.
  - tsol 5y ago
    >First of all - most of the countries recognized their mistakes and got rid of governments pushing for such things. After benefiting from stealing their resources, eventually colonization ended in no small part due to huge amounts of resistance from the colonies(ex Ghandi). I don't think that's exactly deserving of a humanitarian prize. Not only are there are reparations for those who were used, there were even recent military incursions in the Middle East >Secondly - many ghosts of the past are still torment western countries (e.g. last year BLM protests), and in general they are at least recognized as a problem, by general population, not that stubbornly deflected and "whatabouted" as we can observe now in Russia. Cold comfort. That isn't fixing the problem that's just saying "yeah well we feel bad and have problems due to the abuse we inflicted on others". No surprise, but that doesn't help any of the populations that were set back and marginalized by colonization

JamesBarney 5y ago

All the polls in Russia show more than half the population supports the special military operations in Russia. So it's way more than a few hundred. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of soldiers who are literally invading Ukraine right now.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> All the polls in Russia show more than half the population supports the special military operations in Russia. When dissent, both personal and published, is criminalized, that less than half of people will tell a stranger promising anonymity and purporting to represent a media organization that they dissent doesn't mean anything like that less than half of people actually dissent. Opinion polling can be problematic in a liberal democracy with a strong tradition of freedom of political opinion and expression, but in regimes that aren't it is beyond problematic.
ridiculous_leke 5y ago
Not sure how legit the polls are. However, most of the people will support security and safety over freedom. Supporting war seems to be the only safe of living under Putin's regime.

opportune 5y ago

Yeah, it’s unreasonable to expect everybody in a corrupt regime to sacrifice their life to stop it. At least Russia is not stopping them from leaving. These Russians leaving their country is still a “vote with your feet” type of play. It hurts the regime of Russia to have professionals leave, especially since the people who leave are more likely to be more skilled. It’s better than doing nothing at all.

optimalonpaper 5y ago

> if you’re an average Russian with few/no international ties, would you really risk protesting against a government with a demonstrated track record of murdering dissidents and imprisoning protestors? I think one has to decide what's important for them -- if I think that my participation in collective action (protest) could somehow prevent or stop killing of other people, then I think I would try at least (and if I knew there were other people who I can rely on, who share the same feelings that I have). In this case, if nothing changes, at least I know I did all I could, but if it works (in best case scenario), then the war is over. Worth risking right? This is how the Revolution of Dignity happened in Ukraine: you just knew you had to act -- and act as a group not as an individual -- when the president you elected have failed your nation (and before running away he also proposed fines and imprisonment for those who took part in protests, so there were risks obviously). > I don’t disagree with the sanctions but we also shouldn’t pretend that it is a just or fair course of action. Sanctions are the best tool that we have, out of a selection of poor tools. Completely agree